PHRN transfer to EMT-P in other states?

[Handsome Robb]

Are you serious?

A nurse does only what is delegated by the MD?

If the doctor prescribes a drug that the patient does not need, the nurse will give it without even questioning the MD about it? Or in a inappropriate dosage?

If the doctor prescribes a drug contraindicated in a patient, the nurse will give it without questioning the MD about this? Like nitroglycerin for right ventricular AMI?

I know I'm from a different country. In the U.S. there are paramedics and I have the utmost respect for them. They do what they are trained for, But here all ALS units are staffed by a physician and a nurse, and all ILS units are staffed by an EMT and a nurse.

I had the opportunity to work with nurses who are a "disaster" to work on PH. Nevertheless, I have had the opportunity to work with ICU Nurses / Nurse Anesthetists, with additional training in ALS, TNCC, difficult airway management, etc, which are really good to work on PH.

There are good and bad professionals everywhere, Nurses, Doctors, EMT's, whatever.

And quite honestly, I do not want to be treated by a nurse who merely do what is delegated by the MD.

Yes I am serious. 100%. I'll argue this point all day long. If a nurse wants to work in the prehospital field they need to take a full paramedic course or a proper RN-to-EMT-P bridge course with appropriate clinical and classroom education along with prerequisite experience in a high acuity care setting. RN =/= Paramedic. I don't care if you have a BSN, MSN or PhD. You can't just hop on an ambulance and think you can do our job. It's not rocket science but there's plenty taught in medic school that nurses aren't taught during nursing school. Skills are easy to teach, knowing when to perform or no perform those skills or administer those medications is a totally different story. We can't just drop a tube, place a central and arterial line, draw ABGs and labs, do some radiography and ship them upstairs, that's not how it works.

The system you work in is vastly different than that of systems in the U.S. You're comparing apples to oranges. We don't staff physicians and RNs on ambulances, we staff paramedics and EMTs. It's not uncommon in some areas, and is the norm in many, to have an ambulance with two EMTs and no Paramedic, so your argument is moot.

See my above post about having to walk a BSN RN through administering adenosine, a commonly administered ACLS medication. Or having to explain what anectine is to another experienced ER RN. Sorry, I used a trade name, I guess I should've spelled it out for them instead

Ever sat through an ACLS class full of BSN RNs and been the only person that can run a run-of-the-mill asystole/PEA arrest without mumbling and bumbling their way through it?

Ever seen a flight nurse defer decisions about patient extrication, packaging, immediate "stabilization" or a difficult airway to their flight medic partner or to the ground medic while their partner is tied up with another patient on a scene flight?

RVI is not a contraindication to NTG. It's a caution. You aren't going to automatically kill someone presenting with a RVI by giving them NTG. If you aren't careful about it you absolutely can, yes, but that's not an absolute. Medication administration in any shape or form requires good clinical judgement and clinical correlation to form a differential diagnosis and treatment plan for said diagnosis.

You just confirmed my argument. The nurses you listed all have extra training in EMS. They aren't challenging the paramedic exam and thinking they can hack it as an ALS provider because they are an RN with an EMT-B cert and passed a test that a high schooler could pass after skimming a book and taking some practice exams.

Well then you shouldn't ever be treated in a hospital in the U.S. then if you don't want to be treated by a nurse who's following a doctor's orders.

I've said it before and I will say it again, I have a lot of respect for nurses. Always have, always will. But there's nothing you can say that will convince me that a RN with ER or ICU experience can challenge the NREMT-P exam, especially without having to do the skills exam, and be able to operate as a competent Paramedic In Charge.

99% of our calls in EMS are not immediately life threatening, but during that one percent do you want someone who went to school for exactly that situation or do you want the nurse that went to nursing school then challenged the paramedic certification exam? You think about that and let me know.

 

[HMartinho]

I agree that they are different systems. And I agree also that a nurse with no experience in PH has no ability to work in the area, even because work in a hospital, even with critical patients, is totally different than working in PH, but I can not see the problem of RN-Paramedic bridge programs, with all evaluations and tests it requires.

You refers this nurse who does not know the ALS algorithm, and does not know how to administer adenosine. And you think that all nurses are like that? All nurses do not know the algorithm?

I totally agree that in trauma, paramedics and EMTs are much better than most of nurses. That is unquestionable. However, I've seen nurses runing cardiac arrests, as well as MD's. They know what drugs administer, doses and when administer, as well the defibrillation sequence, and the entire sequence of the algorithm. As I have seen nurses who know nothing about ALS and emergency care. And, frankly, a nurse working in a nursing home that is not the same as an CRNA or an ICU RN, I guess.

RVI is not an absolute contraindication to NTG, but I personally would question the doctor if he really wants this medication, with special attention to monitor BP, HR and ECG rhythm.

And yes, a nurse follows the orders of MD's, but that does not mean that he/she do not has clinical judgment to question the MD orders whenever they deem necessary.

 

[Summit]

Vene's posts are the best posts in the thread.

I know nurses have standing orders just like paramedics do and can operate autonomously to a point but at the same time you're not making the decision to pull the trigger on an invasive procedure or giving medications that potentially could be fatal to that patient.

My responses should be understood primarily as correcting some misconeptions about nurses, not an argument that any US RN can step into a medics shoes with no additional training.

Nurses are constantly giving medications to patients that require the nurses clinical judgement on whether the patient needs the medication or can handle the medication. That is true from the LTC to the floor to the ED to the ICU. The paramedic protocols cover a comparatively small formulary.

Nurses have a lot of education but nursing education to EMS education is apples to oranges. We're talking long term care vs. emergency medicine, generally

More accurately, nursing education covers general practice over both long and short term care versus paramedics training in emergency short term care.

but nurses trying to challenge the EMT-P because they had RN and EMT-B after their name is downright insulting.

I agree... I'd also add "terrifying."

I'm absolutely open to a bridge class, with proper requirements

Most of the bridge programs I know about require X years of Y experience, usually 2+ years of ICU/ED and an EMT cert. Usually, these programs are full of flight nurses because there just aren't a whole lot of nurses who want to become paramedics, particularly compared to the number of paramedics who want to become RNs.

That's a two way street, there are medic-to-RN bridges out there but good luck getting a good nursing job with that kind of education behind your RN license even with thousands of ALS patient contacts as the Paramedic In Charge.

It goes back to my statement earlier that is easier for an educated generalist to specialize than a specialist technician to become an educated generalist. A generalists experience helps them specialize far more than a specialists experience helps them generalize. That is why medic-to-RN bridge programs fall into two categories:
1. sketchy and poorly respected
2. hardly any time/effort saved versus a normal program

I truly doubt that a ADN or BSN goes over delegation vastly more than a good paramedic program. EMT-B courses barely even touch on delegation, that's not even a point you can use in this argument...

The comparison I've always hear is "A paramedic is like the conductor of an orchestra, you don't play the instruments, but you direct the musicians and bring them all together in harmony". That's not what a nurse does, sorry, you can't argue with that. I have no doubt that nurses delegate but in a sick patient, they are the conductees, not the conductor.

Here you are WAY OFF about nurses.

EMT-Bs are not taught delegation because they can only delegate to each other or utilize a first responder to hold pressure, take vitals, a LEO to control traffic, etc. That is pretty straightforward.

Paramedics have more responsibility and complexity in delegation; they must what they can and cannot delegate to intermediates, basics, responders, other paramedics, and what requires consultation (a form of delegation) with OLMC.

RNs can delegate to other RNs and a variety of other in-hospital caregivers such as LPN/LVNs, RTs, and many UAPs (including CNA, MA, EMT, paramedics) while working in teams and consultation with other providers (RNs, RTs, PTs, CRNAs, NPs, PAs, dietician, physicians). A fairly massive portion of RN education, testing, and practice is dedicated to knowing what the RN can and cannot delegate, and what can and cannot be delegated to the RN depending on the situation. The delegation situation is arguably more complex for the RN. The details vary by situation and actor, but the mindset carries well to EMS with practice.

A site commander "conducts." A medic taking charge does that too. A paramedic can be a simple musician or they can run the show depending on the call. Nurses are "conductors" and "orchestra members" on a daily basis too. Now, not all nurses are "conducting" critical situations, but an ICU nurse managing their critical patient or running the code team is a "conductor" for a critical patient.

 

[CANMAN]

Yes I am serious. 100%. I'll argue this point all day long. If a nurse wants to work in the prehospital field they need to take a full paramedic course or a proper RN-to-EMT-P bridge course with appropriate clinical and classroom education along with prerequisite experience in a high acuity care setting. RN =/= Paramedic. I don't care if you have a BSN, MSN or PhD. You can't just hop on an ambulance and think you can do our job. It's not rocket science but there's plenty taught in medic school that nurses aren't taught during nursing school. Skills are easy to teach, knowing when to perform or no perform those skills or administer those medications is a totally different story. We can't just drop a tube, place a central and arterial line, draw ABGs and labs, do some radiography and ship them upstairs, that's not how it works.

The system you work in is vastly different than that of systems in the U.S. You're comparing apples to oranges. We don't staff physicians and RNs on ambulances, we staff paramedics and EMTs. It's not uncommon in some areas, and is the norm in many, to have an ambulance with two EMTs and no Paramedic, so your argument is moot.

See my above post about having to walk a BSN RN through administering adenosine, a commonly administered ACLS medication. Or having to explain what anectine is to another experienced ER RN. Sorry, I used a trade name, I guess I should've spelled it out for them instead

Ever sat through an ACLS class full of BSN RNs and been the only person that can run a run-of-the-mill asystole/PEA arrest without mumbling and bumbling their way through it?

Ever seen a flight nurse defer decisions about patient extrication, packaging, immediate "stabilization" or a difficult airway to their flight medic partner or to the ground medic while their partner is tied up with another patient on a scene flight?

RVI is not a contraindication to NTG. It's a caution. You aren't going to automatically kill someone presenting with a RVI by giving them NTG. If you aren't careful about it you absolutely can, yes, but that's not an absolute. Medication administration in any shape or form requires good clinical judgement and clinical correlation to form a differential diagnosis and treatment plan for said diagnosis.

You just confirmed my argument. The nurses you listed all have extra training in EMS. They aren't challenging the paramedic exam and thinking they can hack it as an ALS provider because they are an RN with an EMT-B cert and passed a test that a high schooler could pass after skimming a book and taking some practice exams.

Well then you shouldn't ever be treated in a hospital in the U.S. then if you don't want to be treated by a nurse who's following a doctor's orders.

I've said it before and I will say it again, I have a lot of respect for nurses. Always have, always will. But there's nothing you can say that will convince me that a RN with ER or ICU experience can challenge the NREMT-P exam, especially without having to do the skills exam, and be able to operate as a competent Paramedic In Charge.

99% of our calls in EMS are not immediately life threatening, but during that one percent do you want someone who went to school for exactly that situation or do you want the nurse that went to nursing school then challenged the paramedic certification exam? You think about that and let me know.

I agree with a huge part of your reply here man. I have tons of respect for nurses, I as a medical provider realize the differences between the two of us as clinicians, and what I bring to the table. MOST nurses however are fairly clueless on what Paramedics can do, and the atmosphere and situations we function in on a daily basis. In my program the nurses like to toot their horn and say "It's a nurse run team", well thats all great and well until they need an EJ started, surgical airway, difficult intubation, etc, then all the sudden the nurse isn't leading as much anymore. The times where I have to come in and take over or do a "how to" lesson plan on pacing, cardioversion, while operating on a call are frequent, and with that being said these are some strong clinicians with great backgrounds. We are placed in a team configuration for a reason, we each bring stuff to the team. It's not always the case but I find many more nurses pretending to be able to muck it as a medic, then any medics claiming to know how to be a nurse.

I guess that should illustrate my opinion on the situation. You wanna be a medic, go get your medic, and some field experience to actually back it up. I work in MD, and have worked with a handful of PHRN's. Some are decent, most couldn't hold my jock strap on a scene call.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I agree with a huge part of your reply here man. I have tons of respect for nurses, I as a medical provider realize the differences between the two of us as clinicians, and what I bring to the table. MOST nurses however are fairly clueless on what Paramedics can do, and the atmosphere and situations we function in on a daily basis. In my program the nurses like to toot their horn and say "It's a nurse run team", well thats all great and well until they need an EJ started, surgical airway, difficult intubation, etc, then all the sudden the nurse isn't leading as much anymore. The times where I have to come in and take over or do a "how to" lesson plan on pacing, cardioversion, while operating on a call are frequent, and with that being said these are some strong clinicians with great backgrounds. We are placed in a team configuration for a reason, we each bring stuff to the team. It's not always the case but I find many more nurses pretending to be able to muck it as a medic, then any medics claiming to know how to be a nurse.

I guess that should illustrate my opinion on the situation. You wanna be a medic, go get your medic, and some field experience to actually back it up. I work in MD, and have worked with a handful of PHRN's. Some are decent, most couldn't hold my jock strap on a scene call.

I agree, I think its also worth mentioning what I said on the other thread vene started relating to this.
According to the NREMT the Paramedic level requires 1,000 or more hours of training after EMT-B which is 110+ hours of training. This means the absolute bare bones minimum is over 1100 hours. college credit(quarter) is equal to 20 clock hours.

To be eligible to take the NCLEX-RN® examination, the student must have completed an approved program for educating nurses. It is expected that the graduate has completed a minimum of 1,398 clock hours of study.

Both of the programs specific education core is around the same amount of training. The Paramedics focuses on pre-hospital emergencies, as to where the RN's does not and focuses on a variable cornucopia of items relating mostly to long term in definitive care.

That is all your honor, I rest my case.

 

[Veneficus]

I agree, I think its also worth mentioning what I said on the other thread vene started relating to this.
According to the NREMT the Paramedic level requires 1,000 or more hours of training after EMT-B which is 110+ hours of training. This means the absolute bare bones minimum is over 1100 hours. college credit(quarter) is equal to 20 clock hours.

To be eligible to take the NCLEX-RN® examination, the student must have completed an approved program for educating nurses. It is expected that the graduate has completed a minimum of 1,398 clock hours of study.

How did you come to this number?

It seems a bit low for nurses. A 12 credit hour semester (I don't know anyone still using quarters) would be equal to 96 credit hours, still short of a BS. 96x20 is 1920 hours. 120 credit hours (still a bit short would be 120x20 or 2400 hours.) The 128 credit hours to bachelor's I am familiar with would be 128x20= 2560.

That is more than double of 1100 hours.

Edit: (I stopped trying to count hours of education in med school after I hit 8K)

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Ref: https://www.ncsbn.org/2011_Educational_Programs.pdf
also for your perusal http://www.acics.org https://www.nremt.org/

We still use quarter hours a lot in the NW of USA at CC but also many universities. The number varies from state to state, often the Paramedic program is longer in hours at some CC's than the RN.

I am not trying to get into another pissing contest with this though, I am just saying the Paramedic program focuses specifically on pre-hospital emergencies. Both entry level minimum education requirements to be nationally certified/licensed are still not at a university level of education, no matter how many may argue about the future of educational trends and what is expected.

 

[Veneficus]

Ref: https://www.ncsbn.org/2011_Educational_Programs.pdf
also for your perusal http://www.acics.org https://www.nremt.org/

We still use quarter hours a lot in the NW of USA at CC but also many universities. The number varies from state to state, often the Paramedic program is longer in hours at some CC's than the RN.

I am not trying to get into another pissing contest with this though, I am just saying the Paramedic program focuses specifically on pre-hospital emergencies. Both entry level minimum education requirements to be nationally certified/licensed are still not at a university level of education, no matter how many may argue about the future of educational trends and what is expected.

Not rying to get into a pissing contest, it just conflicted with the obvious math, so it had to be reconciled.

 

[VFlutter]

That 1,398 figure is probably the length of a diploma program which is still technically the minimum. But as I said before the number of diploma programs in the US is insignificant, under 30 I believe, and graduate very few students. In the next few years these programs will most likely become extinct.

128 credit hours is about right for my BSN


Yes we are arguing educational tends and the future but as of today it still stands the vast majority of RNs hold an associate degree or higher and that the percentage which bachelors degree has been slowly but steadily increasing over the past few years. Summit posted the older statistics. What percentage of medics hold a degree of any kind?

 

[ExpatMedic0]

that number was for an associates degree holding RN.(current majority of RN's) Feel free to ref the document above Vene requested. Many states medics programs have more hours than the RN program at the same college, its not uncommon.

The nurse however normally has mandatory A&P classes, biology, ect which are separate classes and do not count as part of the RN clock hours. There are of course medics who have this also, but I am pretty sure its safe to say more RN's have those separate classes than most medics, unless the medic completed an optional degree.

My point however was this, both "professions" can be granted at the community college or diploma level, granting the individual the same exact medical licence to or certification as someone who chooses to take on a higher degree.

In addition to that the training/education is for 2 completely different careers.
Who is the ultimate medical authority on a pre-hospital scene?
In most states its an off duty Medical Doctor, otherwise Its the Paramedic. Off duty RN's are not allowed to surpass the Paramedic and have no authority over even on duty EMT-B's in pre-hospital emergencies. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[silver]

In addition to that the training/education is for 2 completely different careers.
Who is the ultimate medical authority on a pre-hospital scene?
In most states its an off duty Medical Doctor, otherwise Its the Paramedic. Off duty RN's are not allowed to surpass the Paramedic and have no authority over even on duty EMT-B's in pre-hospital emergencies. Why do you suppose that is?

The same is for an off duty medic.

Why do you suppose that? Because your authority as a paramedic comes from a medical director (physician), regardless if you have ever met him/her.

 

[Shishkabob]

Yes we are arguing educational tends and the future

If you REALLY want to get picky, Paramedicine is still in its infancy, and in relation to age of the profession and education required at the same point, Paramedicine is vastly superior to nursing because we have progressed in education at a much quicker rate. Give us another 40 years.

 

[silver]

If you REALLY want to get picky, Paramedicine is still in its infancy, and in relation to age of the profession and education required at the same point, Paramedicine is vastly superior to nursing because we have progressed in education at a much quicker rate. Give us another 40 years.

And respiratory therapy puts everyone to shame based on that theory. Ya'll (nursing and EMS) should just gang up on them.

 

[VFlutter]

Who is the ultimate medical authority on a pre-hospital scene?
In most states its an off duty Medical Doctor, otherwise Its the Paramedic. Off duty RN's are not allowed to surpass the Paramedic and have no authority over even on duty EMT-B's in pre-hospital emergencies. Why do you suppose that is?

When does any off duty provider, outside of a MD, have medical authority over an on duty provider? I do not see your point

I am not trying to argue that a RN is a better pre-hospital provider than a paramedic I am saying that a RN can transition into that role with some extra education, a bridge program. Just like if I was a Med/surg nurse moving to a cardiac unit I would have to go through a unit orientation, not go through nursing school again and retake pharm, A&P, etc.

Who technically has authority on a RN/Medic flight team? Not a facetious question

 

[Veneficus]

In addition to that the training/education is for 2 completely different careers.

I see your point, but I am not sure if I can agree with it.

Restraining the conversation to the US, there are several examples where nurses have entered the prehospital arena, both on ambulances and in flight.

Yes, they have undergone some additional training, but I am willing to bet nowhere near 1100 hours.

Who is the ultimate medical authority on a pre-hospital scene?
In most states its an off duty Medical Doctor, otherwise Its the Paramedic. Off duty RN's are not allowed to surpass the Paramedic and have no authority over even on duty EMT-B's in pre-hospital emergencies. Why do you suppose that is?

I am not sure this is entirely accurate either. Usually on a nurse/medic flight team, ultimately the nurse is in charge. I have also seen industrial EMS/medical departments where the nurse hold authority over the paramedic on all aspects of on site care.

Obviously the nurse will usually defer when appropriate, but not always, and still retains responsibility.

 

[Shishkabob]

Who technically has authority on a RN/Medic flight team? Not a facetious question

Depends on the agency's rules, but typically if it's a scene / emergency flight, it's the medic, while if it's a transfer, it's the nurse. And every agency I've worked for has been the same: If it's an EMS related thing, the medic is in charge. If it's a nurse related thing, the nurse is.


Not too often (if at all) you'll see a nurse in charge of a cardiac arrest or peri-arrest when a medic is on scene if both are held to their license.

 

[Aidey]

Our local hems is as Linuss describes. The medic is in charge on scene calls, RN on transfers. The medic is also in charge of all things airway, although the nurses obviously know how to operate everything. They chose to have medic/RN over another configuration because they do a lot of scene calls and they found having medics prevented those from being FUBAR.

 

[Summit]

Ref: https://www.ncsbn.org/2011_Educational_Programs.pdf
also for your perusal http://www.acics.org https://www.nremt.org/

We still use quarter hours a lot in the NW of USA at CC but also many universities. The number varies from state to state, often the Paramedic program is longer in hours at some CC's than the RN.

I am not trying to get into another pissing contest with this though, I am just saying the Paramedic program focuses specifically on pre-hospital emergencies. Both entry level minimum education requirements to be nationally certified/licensed are still not at a university level of education, no matter how many may argue about the future of educational trends and what is expected.

First, I have to correct this "contact hours per credit" thing. Most of the nation uses semester credits. 15 credits in an average semester load. 60 credits in an associates. 120 is a bachelors. Each credit supposedly has 15-18 contact hours. In reality, lab and clinical hours are counted at about 1/2 to 1/3 of a classroom hour. I'm speaking for science courses as much as for RN/EMS. Example: a 5 semester credit nursing class might include 64 hours of lecture, 20 hours of lab, and 96 hours of clinical.

I am not trying to get into another pissing contest with this though, but you are being disingenuous when you claim that paramedic programs "often" longer than nursing programs. I have yet to see any. The bottom line is nationally, paramedic programs are on the whole a vo-tech program that is often done in less than a year while 96% of nursing programs are at least associate degrees that take 3 years including prereqs. It is disingenuous to do hour to hour comparisons of programs themselves when most nursing programs require close to a year of full time school in prereqs that allow them to be taught at a higher level. Let me examine a program nearby that is hospital affiliated paramedic program taught out of a CC:

Paramedic: 1200 hours of class and clinical with the following prereqs
"Current EMT-Basic or EMT-Intermediate certification
Current Healthcare Provider - CPR Certification
High School diploma, GED, or college transcript
Documentation of reading level at 10th grade or above
Basic EKG & IV Approval courses (EMT-Basic Applicants ONLY)
Anatomy & Physiology (College Level) is included in the program and not a requirement for admission."

Now... 31 semester hour credits are given for the paramedic portion of the program. That is what you expect for the non 1:1 consideration of clinical and lab hours. If you make it a 62 hour AAS, they are including 14 credits for EKG, IV, and EMT-B!

It's sister college RN associates program is 750 clinical hours and 51 credits of nursing courses in an 82 credit degree with the following prereqs:
BIO 201 Human Anatomy and Physiology I
BIO 202 Human Anatomy and Physiology II
BIO 204 Microbiology
BIO 216 Pathophysiology
ENG 121 English Composition I
HWE 100 Human Nutrition
MAT 103 Math for Clinical Calculations
PSY 235 Human Growth and Development
Elective: GT Arts & Humanities or Social and Behavioral Science

It is actually 93 credits because BIO201 require 5hr BIO 101 Biology 1 with lab, and PSY235 requiers PSY 101&102 Psychology 1&II.

So that is 93 semester credits against 62 for Paramedic... looking at a random Oregon college (PCC), it is 122 quarter credits for an RN (not counting the required CNA) and 107 for Paramedic (which still includes EMT).

I'm not talking outliers either. I'm talking about the paramedic program I was going to attend if I didn't go nursing, and the nursing program at it's sister CC, a fairly average CC RN program. It isn't the nursing program I attended. If you want an outlier, I had 132 hours... I took 66 semester credits of nursing specific classes after fulfilling the same number of prereqs credits and I had ~1600 hours of clinical. I seek the top... that nursing education only accounts for one half of all the college credits I've earned.

You are right that neither profession has a university level requirement, but 39% university prepared entry level is a lot more than essentially 0%

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I went to PCC for a couple terms and since you mentioned it, lets compare that shall we.

Paramedic http://www.pcc.edu/academics/index.cfm/46,897,30,html
RN http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

As I am sure you saw the pre-recs are the same and degree's are both entry level requirements for both providers in Oregon.

The Difference? Well one focuses only on Pre-hospital Emergencies, the other on long term care in a hospital. I think that is what should be taken away from this entire thread. If a RN wants to be a medic they should take a bridge if a medic wants to be an RN they should take a bridge. Its a 2 way road.

Also as you can see, we mostly use quarter hours in WA and OR. Its fine if you use semester hours where your at. As I posted before clock hour conversion can be found here http://www.acics.org/news/content.aspx?id=4419
In regards to the program clock hours themselves, yes many medic programs have more "clock hours" then RN programs, or are always at least comparable to one another.

I think saying 0% of us hold a degree is a little unfair don't you? Many of us on this board hold degree's, as you know I am completing a BS and many of my previous co workers and present colleagues hold a degree with there P card. Plus there are the 2 or 3 states where everyone is required to hold a degree. I could have just as easily spent that time and money to become an RN but I chose not to. I like my job.

I am not saying the minimum education nationwide is satisfactory for pre-hospital care providers. It still has a long a way to go and I am doing my part. Slowly but surely it will continue to improve. However summing up medics as non educated bafoons who went to something like truck driving school is making a blanketed statements. Especially when you side by side compare most associate's degree programs.This may or may not reflect providers in your area but it certainly does not effect us all.

 

[VFlutter]

I think saying 0% of us hold a degree is a little unfair don't you? Many of us on this board hold degree's, as you know I am completing a BS and many of my previous co workers and present colleagues hold a degree with there P card.

I believe he was referring to the 39% of RNs who hold BSNs compared to the percentage of medics who hold a bachelor degree which while not 0% is much much lower. I would be surprised if 39% of medics nationwide held a degree of any kind.