Phoenix SouthWest Medics Concerned Over Lack Of Sleep

[46Young]

Yeah it must be rough if you actually could be home every night to tuck your kids into bed or to say good-bye to them in the morning before you went work.

I love 12s. That is what I did on CCT and Flight as well as now in the hospital. I have not missed doing 24+ calls in 24 hours with the FD. Those who enjoy the 24 and 48 hour shifts the most probably don't have a family life.

If anything has ruined marriages in the FD/EMS it is the 24 hour shifts and jealousy. Those working don't have any control over what their spouses are doing at home "alone" and those at home want to know who their spouses are doing at work. From the threads on the EMS forums, it there little doubt how something like that could have crossed their mind.

What if you work an 0700-1900 or an 0800-2000? All you'll be able to do is say good morning to your kids or tuck them in to bed. When you work 24's you can actually take them to school in the morning, pick them up after school, take them to the park in the afternoon, or to practice if they're older. If you need to be off for a function, you can do an exchange for 5, 8, 12 hours or whatever. I'll take a few days a week where I can spend hours with the family rather than see them for a few moments when I come home at 2100 hours or so.

When I worked all nights for hosp based EMS, my wife's complaint was that I was never home in the evenings, and why couldn't I work a 9-5? When I went through the fire academy her complaint was that I was gone all day every day and she only saw me for a couple of hours in the evening. Now that I'm working 24's, there's no issue with us.

Anyway, if you have to worry about your spouse double dipping and vice versa, what kind of person did you marry? Jealousy and insecurity is something you need to pick up on much earlier in the relationship. I've dumped many a bunny boiler or high maintenance control freak/princess.

BTW, LA City has used the 48/96 with general satisfaction per their report:

http://www.uflac.org/files/UFLAC 48-96 Color Primo v1.3.pdf

 

[VentMedic]

What if you work an 0700-1900 or an 0800-2000? All you'll be able to do is say good morning to your kids or tuck them in to bed. When you work 24's you can actually take them to school in the morning, pick them up after school, take them to the park in the afternoon, or to practice if they're older. If you need to be off for a function, you can do an exchange for 5, 8, 12 hours or whatever. I'll take a few days a week where I can spend hours with the family rather than see them for a few moments when I come home at 2100 hours or so.

When I worked all nights for hosp based EMS, my wife's complaint was that I was never home in the evenings, and why couldn't I work a 9-5? When I went through the fire academy her complaint was that I was gone all day every day and she only saw me for a couple of hours in the evening. Now that I'm working 24's, there's no issue with us.

Anyway, if you have to worry about your spouse double dipping and vice versa, what kind of person did you marry? Jealousy and insecurity is something you need to pick up on much earlier in the relationship. I've dumped many a bunny boiler or high maintenance control freak/princess.

BTW, LA City has used the 48/96 with general satisfaction per their report:

http://www.uflac.org/files/UFLAC 48-96 Color Primo v1.3.pdf

You can't work 3 12 hour shifts a week to see your kids in the morning and in the evening?

What if you married someone else in EMS or the FD? One of you would either have to give up their job or you would be working opposite shifts to take care of the kids. That only you with your spouse every 3rd day. I have known couples who have done this for many years because they didn't have a live in nanny and didn't want their kids sleeping away from home 2 -3 nights per week.

Did you say you and your wife almost divorced? Of course she's now happy with your 24s. If she's smart she'll wait till you brag a little more about all the money you have and go straight for the bank account once it gets to a desirable level.

 

[46Young]

You can't work 3 12 hour shifts a week to see your kids in the morning and in the evening?

What if you married someone else in EMS or the FD? One of you would either have to give up their job or you would be working opposite shifts to take care of the kids. That only you with your spouse every 3rd day. I have known couples who have done this for many years because they didn't have a live in nanny and didn't want their kids sleeping away from home 2 -3 nights per week.

Did you say you and your wife almost divorced? Of course she's now happy with your 24s. If she's smart she'll wait till you brag a little more about all the money you have and go straight for the bank account once it gets to a desirable level.

Really, who's only working 3-4 12 hour shifts per week in this line of work? Some do 3 12's and an extra every third week, and others do 2 12/s and 2 8's per week. Add in the all too common late job and you may not get home until after your kids are asleep. Many in EMS also work side jobs and/or OT. At least if you're working 24's you can still do OT and be home 50% of the time give or take.

When my wife met me I didn't have much in the way of money or possessions. It would be highly unlikely for her to agree to move down here with me for this job, express her satisfaction with the neighborhood, job schedule, pay, pension, etc. etc. just to bide her time until our nest egg grows. She's expressed interest in having more children with me, is excited to go house shopping here, and her parents are currently planning to move down here. But maybe you're right, this is one huge convoluted plan straight out of a Lifetime movie where she planned this from like 5 years ago and is waiting for just the right time to take me for a ride. If anything, the relationship was way more stressful when we were broke. The reason we almost divorced was because I went to medic school and basically left her lonely for over a year. Good thing I didn't go to college FT, 2-3 years of virtual abandonment would have sealed the deal. It'd be hard to complete school when you need to work two jobs to cover alimony and child support.

State law dictates that she can't legally take my daughter out of state for permanent residence anyway. With my earning potential I could weather a divorce and still be okay financially. Maybe I could just marry a nurse or something and solve any divorce induced cash flow problems. See, I can make ridiculous statements too.

 

[exodus]

When I did 12's, I did 3 one week, and 4 the next.

Now I do a 24, a 5 (CCT Dedicated), and an 11.

 

[46Young]

When I did 12's, I did 3 one week, and 4 the next.

Now I do a 24, a 5 (CCT Dedicated), and an 11.

That's pretty cool. I also like the Alexandria Fire and EMS' EMS Division (single role) schedule: 24 hour shifts - WOOWOOOO. That's the best schedule I've seen yet.

 

[reaper]

I would never work a 24hr again. I love 12's and being home every day. We work 3 on, 2off, 3 off, 2 on. Works out to having 3 day weekends every other week, which works great with the kids.

Home before they get up and leave after home from school.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

I was a truck driver in the oilfield for most of my adult life, and I volunteered on FD's on my days off, and one thing I learned quickly is that sleep deprivation is a dangerous game to play. I have never understood why there are not laws pertaining to EMS regarding hours of service similar to those enforced on truck drivers. It is difficult to be proficient when you are fighting a losing battle against fatigue.

 

[DrParasite]

24 hour shifts are great for slow stations. They are DANGEROUS in busy urban and suburban areas. If your agency works 24s and you are running for most of the shift, time to tell management to switch to 12s.

my agency works 12s. we can get between 7 calls on a slow day and 20 calls on a busy day per truck. 24s are not a good idea. if you are doing less than 10 calls in a 24 hour shift, you might be olk. bu if you are doing 12+, then when are you sleeping?

remember, would you want to be the patient who was really sick on a medic who was up and working for the past 22 hours? who is falling asleep and can barely sleep straight?

The other thing to keep in mind is that a medic needs to sleep. FFs get away with 24s because they are significantly slower than EMS in terms of call volume. 24s are not good for busy EMS systems, despite what some people will try to claim

 

[fire_911medic]

There are very valid concerns for this. I have serious concerns with 24 hour shifts busy, or non busy departments be it in flight or ground services. I have lost 2 former coworkers due to accidents resulting from falling asleep at the wheel following 24 hour shifts. The truth is, in this job, many work more than one job. Often one goes from a 24 hour shift at one job to another where perhaps he will get no sleep, or very little as well. There are a few options to reduce crew fatigue.

1. Utilize more trucks - yes this is more money for the service, but if a rotation of several trucks is used rotating the frontline truck for so many hours, it usually (except in rare nights) guarantees the crew will get at least some uninterrupted sleep. For example, we had 6 crews on during the day and 4 on at night at one station (which was our busiest). The two trucks were overtime trucks and staffed from 8 a - 8p. The other four were 24 hour trucks that rotated who was first out for six hours a piece. After they were front line, they were rotated to the back working their way back up the the front truck. Also, if 24 hour shifts, they were prohibited working anywhere else for 8 hours prior or 8 hours after shift.

2. Utilize crews in either 12, 10, or 8 hour rotations with time on not exceeding 16 hours. Very similar to pilot's rules to prevent exhaustion.

3. Allow crews to reject taking a call (transfer not 911) if they feel it will affect their safety. Alot no more than a 2 hour "safety break" for the crew, but have no penalty for them turning down due to safety reasons (similar to flight rules as well). However, it should be because they were running steady all day, not because they just don't want to take the transfer.

4. Limit long distance transfers to reduce road fatigue. When you're going long distance, it's easier to doze off as the scenery is much the same for miles.

Let's keep it safe out there !

 

[medic01]

alot of complaining

I have been in the system and maybee I am a rare breed. I have never had a problem with the 24 hour shifts and exhaustion. In fact I have had the opposite. When running day cars (10-12hours) 3-4days a week I spent more time trying to play catch up. Always getting held over and always being asked to pick up calls for the 24 hour units. Most people in that system who are complaing are the ones who need to take a look at why they do what they do. If you are tired and feel like you cant take a call. DONT man up and call for a secondary unit. First thing we learn is crew saftey. I have sent many partners home for being to tired. Oh and from personal experience these are the same people usally who stay up all night and play x-box. Or they dont get sleep the night before. Personally I sleep when ever I can. Day or night. And if you are worried about your bosses punishing you than make sure they put it in paper than you can take it the news.

 

[04_edge]

Ive been on a 24 hour crew for a few months now. It didnt affect me until recently when we havent started getting busy until around 6 or 7 in the evening and running back to back the entire night with no sleep, every shift. The hardest part for me is driving when im that tired with no one to talk to to keep me awake. I only have 2 more 24 hour shifts left before i start my new gig and ill only be working 10's there.

I will never go back to 24 hour shift that does not have a station in which we can sleep at during the day if we are going to have to run all night. Its dangerous, and not worth it at all IMO.

 

[Tigger]

Ive been on a 24 hour crew for a few months now. It didnt affect me until recently when we havent started getting busy until around 6 or 7 in the evening and running back to back the entire night with no sleep, every shift. The hardest part for me is driving when im that tired with no one to talk to to keep me awake. I only have 2 more 24 hour shifts left before i start my new gig and ill only be working 10's there.

I will never go back to 24 hour shift that does not have a station in which we can sleep at during the day if we are going to have to run all night. Its dangerous, and not worth it at all IMO.

Having the station is a must for 24 hour shifts. I think they work fine if the overnight call volume is low. Our medics work 2 24s a week and love them. Our 911 contract is usually slow at night and the city ALS IFT truck is even slower, so they probably make it from midnight to shift change without a call every third shift or so.

But staying in the truck for that long sucks, plain and simple. I worked a few 23s (13 hour day, 2 hours of stocking, 8 hour overnight) this summer and they were downright awful, no matter how slow we were on the overnight. It's too long to be in the cab.

 

[Fish]

24/48 is what we do.

Our busiest trucks average 8-12

Our slow ones 1-3

I am a big fan of 24hr shifts, even when I worked in a busier system and ran 10-20 calls a 24hr shift. The days off are invauleable(did I spell that right?)