Patient dropped the race card

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Lifeguard326

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I just had a patient that wanted to go to the local ER, not a problem, let's go! As she was getting in the ambulance her friend tries to get in, we explain that we don't transport passengers, a which point the patient say fine I don't want to go. I explain again, same result. As I ask her to sign a refusal she says I wouldn't let her friend go because "I'm black".

Ever have this happen to you?

Back story, Pt couldn't give a straight answer about what was wrong.
I have 29 years as a EMT the last 11 as a paramedic, with the last 6 working inner-city.
 
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Driving down the freeway back to base and I pass a 2 car accident with the rear car on it's side. Pull over, back the ambulance up the shoulder to get on scene. Everyone's self extricated. 2 black guys in the front car say their fine. White couple from the rear car (again, whcih rolled onto it's side) say they're fine. Because the car is, well, on it's side, I run through the back/neck/head pain questions, all of which was denyed. Of course now the black couple thinks that we're asking just because they other couple is white.

Thankfully, about this time the local fire department rolls up (which is the 911 paramedic provider). We inform them that no one had any complants and asked if they needed us to do anything. They said no, so we took off.
 
Never happened to me yet, but similar things. I honestly believe some people just plot to make our jobs that much more of an aggravation. I dont see it happening to me though because we can take one extra person such as BF,GF, mom dad freind etc in the front passengers seat.
 
When you filter everything in the world through the context of a wrong, real or perceived there is probably no other way one could react. This doesn't reflect on you as a provider, or how you responded, it reflects on the person.

For example, while I was doing campus first aid we had someone on the team who was a real :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:. Always trying to stir up crap, questioning every direction the team went in, calling for resignations and generally being difficult wherever possible. Him and I got into it one time and I told him off. He responded, "This is because I'm gay isn't it?!" I laughed, "Two of my closest friends are gay. My mom's business partner is gay. A few of her staff also queer. One of my colleagues on the board is gay. Oh ya and my Aunt and her wife are both lesbians. But ya, I can't stand you because you're gay. It's because you're an A-hole. Nothing more, nothing less."
 
I did think about telling her that the Fire Chief ia African-Americam but quickly decided it wasn't worth getting into with her.
 
Naw, my partner's half black half hispanic.
 
Lifeguard326 said:
I just had a patient that wanted to go to the local ER, not a problem, let's go! As she was getting in the ambulance her friend tries to get in, we explain that we don't transport passengers, a which point the patient say fine I don't want to go. I explain again, same result. As I ask her to sign a refusal she says I wouldn't let her friend go because "I'm black".

Ever have this happen to you?

Back story, Pt couldn't give a straight answer about what was wrong.
I have 29 years as a EMT the last 11 as a paramedic, with the last 6 working inner-city.
Click to expand...

I have worked in a handful of places where there are always racial tensions.

I don't really find a problem with transporting friends and family. As long as everyone has a seat and is belted in, what does it really matter if I take 1 person or 5?

Even when they just want a ride across town because the liquor store or drug dealer is close to the hospital, it really doesn't change anything.
 
Veneficus said:
I have worked in a handful of places where there are always racial tensions.

I don't really find a problem with transporting friends and family. As long as everyone has a seat and is belted in, what does it really matter if I take 1 person or 5?

Even when they just want a ride across town because the liquor store or drug dealer is close to the hospital, it really doesn't change anything.
Click to expand...

It does when you have policies that state very clearly the only time you can take a passenger is when it's a minor child (which I know mine do, and it sounds like something similar might be the OPs).
 
Lifeguard326 said:
I just had a patient that wanted to go to the local ER, not a problem, let's go! As she was getting in the ambulance her friend tries to get in, we explain that we don't transport passengers, a which point the patient say fine I don't want to go. I explain again, same result. As I ask her to sign a refusal she says I wouldn't let her friend go because "I'm black".

Ever have this happen to you?

Back story, Pt couldn't give a straight answer about what was wrong.
I have 29 years as a EMT the last 11 as a paramedic, with the last 6 working inner-city.
Click to expand...

I would have responded: No, it's not. If your friend were to have a medical complaint, we would be happy to transport them as well, or request a second ambulance should their condition require it.
 
jtpaintball70 said:
It does when you have policies that state very clearly the only time you can take a passenger is when it's a minor child (which I know mine do, and it sounds like something similar might be the OPs).
Click to expand...

As with plenty of policies, that's an incredibly stupid policy. Imagine if the hospital didn't allow visitors? Even at the hospitals with policies (which are never a blanket ban), there's always some discretion at the staff level.
 
JPINFV said:
As with plenty of policies, that's an incredibly stupid policy. Imagine if the hospital didn't allow visitors? Even at the hospitals with policies (which are never a blanket ban), there's always some discretion at the staff level.
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Not stupid at all when you think about it - limiting the number of passengers limits liability if the ambulance gets in an accident. Only one lawsuit instead of two or three. Our policy is one passenger only, and they must ride in the front, unless the pt is a minor and they're the parent, or they're functioning as a translator. If you have several children, we'll work something out. Maybe the engine crew or EMS supervisor will stay with the kids while a family member gets to the house. Maybe the police or the EMS supervisor will drive the children to the hospital if no other option is available.
 
What's stopping the police or EMS supervisor from getting into an accident?

Do you transport everyone with lights and sirens?

Are your drivers so bad that this is a serious concern about only them crashing?
 
JPINFV said:
What's stopping the police or EMS supervisor from getting into an accident?

Do you transport everyone with lights and sirens?

Are your drivers so bad that this is a serious concern about only them crashing?
Click to expand...

Ours is because of a city blanket policy about passengers in city vehicles. We've been trying to get any kind of exemption, but so far only PD vehicles are exempt from that rule.
 
How stupid to call someones policy stupid when one does not agree with it.

There are many good reasons to not allow people to ride. All services in my area have a no rider policy. As others mentioned insurance and potential law suits does play a part. Also if things go bad with patient you now have a person potentially interfering with care. We are not a hospital and do not have space like a hospital does for visitors. At the hospital you ask family and friends to leave the room while providing some types of care, where can they go when you are going down the highway? ;)

Think before you post.
 
If things go bad, the family isn't necessarily going to be sent to the waiting room.

Just because a procedure is being done in the hospital doesn't mean the family is going out to the waiting room.

Do you honestly expect every single patient in the ambulance to always crash during transport?

When providing care on scene in a house, do you always ask everyone in the house to leave the room?

Why is it a zero tolerance policy instead of a provider discretion policy?

...and yes, a "OMG, LAWSUITS" policy is almost always stupid. People don't sue providers they like, and zero tolerance policies tends to make people not like organizations.

Zero tolerance policies is why the TSA is banning 3 inch pieces of resin. After all, it's policy.
 
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medic417 said:
Also if things go bad with patient you now have a person potentially interfering with care. We are not a hospital and do not have space like a hospital does for visitors. At the hospital you ask family and friends to leave the room while providing some types of care, where can they go when you are going down the highway? ;)

Think before you post.
Click to expand...

Consider that the worst case scenario for is cardiac arrest, and some studies have shown that family comes to terms better with the situation and negative outcomes when they can see the process and efforts being made for their loved one. There is certainly lots of debate in this area, but often my feeling is that we exclude family more for our own benefit then for anyone else's.

Some abstracts via PubMed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20882800

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20809692

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20712669

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234233

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19891073

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19734795
 
WolfmanHarris said:
Consider that the worst case scenario for is cardiac arrest, and some studies have shown that family comes to terms better with the situation and negative outcomes when they can see the process and efforts being made for their loved one. There is certainly lots of debate in this area, but often my feeling is that we exclude family more for our own benefit then for anyone else's.
Click to expand...

I agree include family in the code. I often ask questions and explain things to family, but this is on scene as I do not transport codes unless they ROSC.
Again in the ambulance you do not have proper and safe space for family to be there. Why add a distraction for the Paramedic working on the patient or the emt that is driving?
 
JPINFV said:
If things go bad, the family isn't necessarily going to be sent to the waiting room.

Just because a procedure is being done in the hospital doesn't mean the family is going out to the waiting room.

Do you honestly expect every single patient in the ambulance to always crash during transport?

When providing care on scene in a house, do you always ask everyone in the house to leave the room?

Why is it a zero tolerance policy instead of a provider discretion policy?

...and yes, a "OMG, LAWSUITS" policy is almost always stupid. People don't sue providers they like, and zero tolerance policies tends to make people not like organizations.

Zero tolerance policies is why the TSA is banning 3 inch pieces of resin. After all, it's policy.
Click to expand...

We usually move the pt to the ambulance after an initial assessment, vitals, and ECG, unless they're in extremis. This is to provide a calm, organized environment, where we're in control, away from the family, who can disrupt pt care. We typically have a provider steer family away from the pt in arrest and into another room, and talk with them.

It's extremely rare that we need to txp multiple children to the ED. Ususlly we have PD, the supervisor, or the engine company watch them. There's plenty of opportunity to get into an accident without running L/S. And no, I don't expect every ambulance to crash, but if the policy saves even one lawsuit, it's worth it. The back of the ambulance isn't a particularly safe place to be in the case of an MVA. Denying the request for extra passengers doesn't negatively affect pt care. The cost of the suit can increase our insurance rates, as well as cost the county money. That can affect our operating budget. Like 417 said, that passenger can disrupt pt care should things go badly. There's no benefit to having them there, but there are several negatives.

It is our discretion, and I do make allowances on occasion, but we're under no obligation whatsoever to txp anyone but the pt (and parent of the minor).
 
medic417 said:
I agree include family in the code. I often ask questions and explain things to family, but this is on scene as I do not transport codes unless they ROSC.
Again in the ambulance you do not have proper and safe space for family to be there. Why add a distraction for the Paramedic working on the patient or the emt that is driving?
Click to expand...

I am the same way. If someone has ROSC on scene there are generally going to be 3 people in the back during transport, myself and two FD guys. There is simply not room for a 4th, especially when we're trying to get into the supplies, and I'm the only one who knows where everything is.

One of my co-workers also had a situation where a passenger grabbed the steering wheel while they were driving code. It didn't cause an accident, but it was only becuase of pure luck.
 
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