New York's Poorest

[CFRBryan347768]

Touchy touchy. It's not that they do nothing, it's that they do so little (as evidenced by your inability to give a good medical reason why they deserve a pay hike). If you want to make higher wage, then you need to provide a higher level of care to the patients that you are responsible for. Gee, have I said that before?

(oh, is tha 500 hours the whole length of the academy, because I do believe that that issue has allready been addressed.)

It is touchy touch, when you live so close to FDNY and you see what CRAP pay they make, and how FDNY EMS is suffering and they are burning out more and more EMT's due to mandatory OT, and still not being able to cover certain places it's quite annoying to put it nicely.

 

[triemal04]

A good medical reason? There aren't enough ambulances. Decreased response time could kill people. Thats seems like good medical reason to me to increase the pay. Hey if you get movers beaticians and garbage men to come work for FDNY, as long as they can pass the physical, they are hired.

I'm still waiting for a reason, a good medical reason, that EMT-B's that provide little to no care for people should be paid more. After all:

If you want to make higher wage, then you need to provide a higher level of care to the patients that you are responsible for.

(I'm also waiting to hear what you think they should make...your refusal to answer so many of these questions is making me think all kind's of things that reflect rather poorly on you...not that it matters...this is the internet)

It's nice to know that you think that an EMT-B should be paid more, but why only in NYC? After all the job is the job is the job, so why not in bumbledump, Iowa too? (asked this before without a responce) EMT-B's are given minimal training, very much like McDonalds workers...should Mickey Dee's employees get a pay raise? (asked this too) If an EMT-B in NYC is expected to NOT treat their patients, then why pay them more? (asked this many times)

Seriously, why is it that the lowest level providers in EMS think they are so special? Look at almost every other medical profession out there that made lousy wages at one point. Instead of whining that they needed money for doing the same lousy job, they increased their education levels, increased what they could do, increased their standard of care, and surprise surprise, they got more money. Really easy if you think about it.

Something else to keep in mind, simple increasing pay won't neccasarily mean that more people will be willing to work in the field. Whole 'nother issue, but, keep it in mind.

It is touchy touch, when you live so close to FDNY and you see what CRAP pay they make, and how FDNY EMS is suffering and they are burning out more and more EMT's due to mandatory OT, and still not being able to cover certain places it's quite annoying to put it nicely.

What's your point? That because they work in NYC they should make more? What makes them so special? (allready covered this, and the answer was nothing) I'll say it again: it sucks that the system there is broken, it is and that's not good, but why should someone get a pay raise for doing nothing for their patients? Nobody has answered this question yet. Firecoins can't, do you want to give it a shot?

 

[CFRBryan347768]

What's your point? That because they work in NYC they should make more? What makes them so special? (allready covered this, and the answer was nothing) I'll say it again: it sucks that the system there is broken, it is and that's not good, but why should someone get a pay raise for doing nothing for their patients? Nobody has answered this question yet. Firecoins can't, do you want to give it a shot?

The pay raise would bring in more employees, which would put more ambulances in service. And im only talking about NYC because thats how this thread did start off with NYC EMT's did it not? If your so worried about equalized pay globaly, then why not start another thread? As a matter of fact ill do it for you http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=82509#post82509

 

[triemal04]

The pay raise would bring in more employees, which would put more ambulances in service. And im only talking about NYC because thats how this thread did start off with NYC EMT's did it not? If your so worried about equalized pay globaly, then why not start another thread? As a matter of fact ill do it for you http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=82509#post82509

To be honest, I really doubt it would. Unless you are talking about a huge pay hike...since firecoins won't answer it, what do you think they should be making? And lest you forget, an EMT-B in NYC allready makes more than most others elsewhere. Like I said, the system is broken. A pay raise won't fix it. And like I also said, take a hint from other medical professions this has happened too...how did they resolve it? And take another hint from CNA's...if you work the bottom rung job, expect to make bottom rung pay until you move to a higher level. I'll ask it again: why do lower level providers in EMS think they are so special?

I could give a rat's *** about equalized pay...far as I'm concerned the pay for EMT-B's is appropriate. You work in an entry-level, minimally trained position with minimal responsibilities, you get pay that's appropriate for that type of work. Which they do.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

To be honest, I really doubt it would. Unless you are talking about a huge pay hike...since firecoins won't answer it, what do you think they should be making? And lest you forget, an EMT-B in NYC allready makes more than most others elsewhere. Like I said, the system is broken. A pay raise won't fix it. And like I also said, take a hint from other medical professions this has happened too...how did they resolve it? And take another hint from CNA's...if you work the bottom rung job, expect to make bottom rung pay until you move to a higher level. I'll ask it again: why do lower level providers in EMS think they are so special?

I could give a rat's *** about equalized pay...far as I'm concerned the pay for EMT-B's is appropriate. You work in an entry-level, minimally trained position with minimal responsibilities, you get pay that's appropriate for that type of work. Which they do.

Factor in,tolls,parking,housing,and car payments. Id say they should easily start at 32,000 a yr. I can agree with you that most EMS providers think they are special, but since they think the are give them somethign to feel special about(seeing as I am moving all the way up the ladder eventually I have no problem with more specialized intense training), increase the EMT-B training so they can feel all high and mighty and then their would be a legit reason for you.

 

[triemal04]

Factor in,tolls,parking,housing,and car payments. Id say they should easily start at 32,000 a yr. I can agree with you that most EMS providers think they are special, but since they think the are give them somethign to feel special about(seeing as I am moving all the way up the ladder eventually I have no problem with more specialized intense training), increase the EMT-B training so they can feel all high and mighty and then their would be a legit reason for you.

Excellent! You're starting to get it. Yes, many (and this is based off my own experience) lower level providers feel that they are entitled to more than they are and allready feel "all high and mighty," and do feel that they are "special" because they "work in the field." Honestly though...tough. That mean's squat. And increasing somebodies pay because they are a whiner is just so, so wrong. But...increasing someone's pay because they actually know more and are able to perform their job better and go beyond what their job currently is...those are reasons to get more pay.

You say that you are moving "all the way up the ladder." Then why is it only "eventually" that you'll not have a problem with more education? Why not lobby for it now? If this is to be your career, and you really want EMS to last in the US, increasing the education requirements NOW is the way to ensure that, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.

(32K...that's less than the top step for an EMT-B in NYC, and more than many across the country make. So you could argue that the cost of living has been factored in. As I've said before, it's normally impossible to make a living as an EMT-B, so why should NYC be any different?)

 

[firecoins]

To be honest, I really doubt it would. Unless you are talking about a huge pay hike...since firecoins won't answer it, what do you think they should be making?

They should be making enough so there isn't a shortage. The number will be negotiated between the union and NYC. I have no idea what the exact number will be.

This is very easy. I don't why its so difficult to understand that there is a shortage of emts AND paramedics in NYC because pay the sucks. Raise the pay and you solve the problem. It really isn't difficult to understand.

You don't care for care provided by emt-b. That means nothing.

 

[firecoins]

Excellent! (and this is based off my own experience)
so why should NYC be any different?)

You have no experience in NYC. I would have never guessed!

I have never been to the Pacific Northwest. I have no opinion on how it should be done there. There are too many problems specific to NY that I can simply not address in this thread.

We rely on a combined BLS/ALS system and there are in no way enough ALS units to provide care for all 911 calls. FDNY EMS has a tight budget. Raising the number of ALS units is not going to happen any time soon. BLS units are critical to the NYC system. There is a shortage of both EMTs and Paramedics. Both need a raise because the pay sucks for NYC. One day maybe they will riase the # of ALS units. It won't be soon. A pay raise is the easiest to achieve and that is difficult at best.

If you have a general problem with EMT-B care, your free to lobby for higher educational standards. Yes I agree educational standards should be raised. But that is a different issue from NYC EMT-B pay.

 

[ffemt8978]

Play nice, people...

 

[BossyCow]

Please do not assume that triemal's experience is indicative of the entire region. I also live in the Pacific NW and do not share his perceptions or his conclusions. I believe his perceptions are based on conclusions drawn based entirely on a limited experience.

There are many systems in this area who pay their EMTs a decent wage. It is fiscally responsible for an agency to pay for an EMT-P on an ALS unit and accompany that EMT-P with an EMT-B or as it is called in my husband's agency a PMA or Paramedic Assistant. In many cases the PMA is a well trained, experienced assistant in pt care (unlike garbage men). They can set up an IV or even start one. They can take vitals, attach a 12 lead, start the O2, Get an O2 sat, Glucose, Yes a medic can too, but at a higher cost to the company and the patient. Having an EMT perform these tasks can leave the EMT-P free to perform the ALS skills. A well trained, professional team of Paramedic and EMT working together on a patient can provide an efficient assessment and treatment plan for the patient at a lower cost than two paramedics.

Its unfortunate that Triemal has not had a positive experience with EMT-Bs. But if every EMT-B he has ever worked with has been as he described, I can only assume that there is something in his behavior or demeanor that brings this about.

Personally I tend to avoid his posts as they are usually venom filled diatribes laced with snide comments and inaccurate conclusions. But, I felt that since the entire Pacific NW was being labeled as he described it that there needed to be another perspective aired.

 

[Ridryder911]

Seriously Bossy how hard is it to spike a bag of IV fluids or even prepare for a 12 lead. My basics are required to know this as they are tested over IV calculations as well, even though they cannot establish them. We have ER techs (non-trained) that can spike a bag after the first time after being demonstrated.. Are we sure we are not placing too much emphasis on some real, real basic things that even non EMT's can perform?

PMA.. never heard of such, I have to admit a good propaganda tool. Kinda like Graduate Paramedic..a cheap administration tool. Titles are free..Especially, when it does not cost much more for two Paramedics. Seriously, the revenue made from ALS to ALS II charges in multiple patients, or even allowing that Paramedic a break from caring for each critical patient they have to treat.. Surely two heads thinking on critical patient is better than one?

I teach & work with basics all the time. My opinion is not from not from bad experience, rather it is just the fact they are NOT properly educated and trained. This again is not one specific persons fault; but rather the systems fault. Again, Basic EMT's can attempt to justify, whine, and cry all they want.. they cannot change the facts. One hundred fifty hours is just enough to get one confused enough that they actually start believing they understand EMS and medical care.

Instead of justifying Basic Levels for EMS, would it not be more productive to shift their primary role where they are better suited such as a MFR? Placing in rescue and first response units (non-transport) area? Since the curriculum has very little to no anatomy & physiology, cardiology is just little more than CPR and pysch emergencies is briefly a few paragraphs to a few pages, what can we expect? Then we want to endorse such an individual for salaries competitive to what ? ..

Again, Triemal has pointed out.. in the real world in comparrison the Basic Level does not have as much training as some CNA's, definitely not phlebomotist, and even my sanitation tech goes through at least 500 hours of technical training. So back to the point.. what can we expect the pay to be?

We make it so easy to be an EMT, we have watered down the curriculum, and the cause & effect of this has produced low paying jobs.. everywhere.

Solution.. Make Basic EMT one year in length, requiring all the prerequsittes for Paramedic, then allowing one to be a Basic for only four years (unless verified one is going to be a MFR) then one must proceed to the Paramedic level. The market will be more open, the pay & salaries will increase, the EMT will gain experience and have much more knowledge, and we will have truly interested individuals entering EMS as a profession.

R/r 911

 

[CFRBryan347768]

You say that you are moving "all the way up the ladder." Then why is it only "eventually" that you'll not have a problem with more education? Why not lobby for it now? If this is to be your career, and you really want EMS to last in the US, increasing the education requirements NOW is the way to ensure that, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.

Not quite sure I understand what you are saying/asking. Im only 17 I can't take my EMT until Fall. In the Fall I start my pre req. for a Nursing Degree. And then after that going to get my paramedic(Yes, in that order its the way the class landed, and the requirements to get in) Then work as a paramedic and get all my time to bea able to work as a flight nurse. So thats my plan, what didnt I answer that you asked becasue i was unsure about what you said?

 

[triemal04]

Sorry, firecoins, but you've lost all credibility at this point wiht your refusal (or inability) to answer even the most basic questions about this subject, your refusal to advocate for increased pay for ALL EMT-B's (instead focusing on one small group for personal reasons), your insistence that pay be increased but not patient care, your insistence in only looking at the short-term solution, and your blatant attempt at misquoting and misrepresenting what I said. (that's actually kind of cool...honestly)

Educational standards and pay are not 2 seperate issues, but one and the same. Raise the education=raise the pay=raise the quality of care. Sounds good to me. Raise the pay without increasing the quality of care sounds like letting a broken system continue to break.

It still comes back to the same issue: If you want to make more money in this profession, then you have to have something to offer to the people you treat. A "shortage" doesn't matter; in no other area do you see people in entry-level jobs coming out and expecting to be paid great wages. It just doesn't happen that way.

 

[triemal04]

Bossycow-

Oh please. Does you husband still work for a fire department? If so, then your arguement for "PMA's" just got shot down, as well, if you were referencing EMT-B's that work as FF/EMT's...nope, not applicable here. If he doesn't, it still doesn't change my point: the vast majority of EMT-B's make very lousy wages; while some don't, many do, and for the simple reason that they don't do a whole lot, as evidenced by your list of things they can do. (if an EMT-B is working on an ALS ambulance and can't do those things, then they are unqualified to be there) As with Rid, when I work with Basic's, I expect them to do all of that, and more. If they can't, then the problem get's fixed. Rapidly.

The issue is that there isn't a reason for an EMT-B, a person with minimal training in an entry-level job to get paid more than entry-level pay; what do they do to deserve it? Why is it that EMS is the only field where people in that position can feel justified in asking for more money? Why, seriously?

This also has nothing to do with an EMT-B working with a medic; just what they should be paid. Stay on topic. Please. As well, this has nothing to do with my own experiences with EMT-B's, just the simple fact that, as far as patient care goes, they can't do jack. So why should they be paid more? Care to weigh in on that issue?

 

[CFRBryan347768]

in no other area do you see people in entry-level jobs coming out and expecting to be paid great wages. It just doesn't happen that way.

Not to throw gas on the fire but the carpenters union here is pretty good, as an entry level position.

 

[triemal04]

Not quite sure I understand what you are saying/asking. Im only 17 I can't take my EMT until Fall. In the Fall I start my pre req. for a Nursing Degree. And then after that going to get my paramedic(Yes, in that order its the way the class landed, and the requirements to get in) Then work as a paramedic and get all my time to bea able to work as a flight nurse. So thats my plan, what didnt I answer that you asked becasue i was unsure about what you said?

Misread what you said, nevermind. Keep going with that plan.

Edit: What's the starting pay for a carpenter in New York State? If it's like here it's good, but a lot better as you move up, and, (taking the differences in what the job require) I'd be willing to make the arguement that an apprentice carpenter has more responsibility that an EMT-B.

 

[Ridryder911]

..." Then work as a paramedic and get all my time to bea able to work as a flight nurse. So thats my plan....

So you are looking at 10-15 years? Why not just aim to flight medic? Again, nothing wrong with flight nurse (obviously, I am both) but most flight agencies require the minimum of five years ICU/CCU experience after you have become an RN. Suggestion.. most flight services do NOT allow EMS experience for flight nursing.

R/r 911

 

[CFRBryan347768]

Misread what you said, nevermind. Keep going with that plan.

Edit: What's the starting pay for a carpenter in New York State? If it's like here it's good, but a lot better as you move up, and, (taking the differences in what the job require) I'd be willing to make the arguement that an apprentice carpenter has more responsibility that an EMT-B.

I visited, a couple months ago but can't seem to remember any of the figures, just knew it was better then EMT because I said that in my head=D I'm still looking for the pay scale online ill post here when I find it. But the thing to also remember is its mroe class room time, and more work.

 

[BossyCow]

Triemal:

For your information, I was not responding to you but to those commenting that your experience is indicative of the area in which we both live.

But since you brought it up.. here goes....

Yes my husband works for a fire department, but that is not the only agency with which I have experience. I also refer to hospital based systems which use EMTs as PMAs. A local private ambulance service has difficulty filling all its EMT positions and has since upped the base starting wage, unionized and increased the benefit package. There are multiple systems in Washington state that are not fire department based but do use EMT-Bs as part of their care.

I was staying on topic, because you were stating that EMTs were 'useless' and they are not. They can be an integral part of a healthcare team. An entry level EMT fresh out of school is not going to have the familiarity with the equipment, system or paperwork associated with a call that an experienced EMT will have. As they work and increase their skills, they should be paid commeasurate with their abilities and responsibilities and in respect to the amount of money they help to generate for the agency.

If an agency is making money for a call and has the choice between two medics and their salaries, or a medic and an EMT and their salaries, which is going to make more money for that agency? Obviously the money saved by paying one of each is going to be less and increase agency profit margins. From strictly a management point of view, it's a workable system. An EMT who has been on those thousands of calls that Rid refers to is going to know what the medic wants, almost before they even ask for it. That experience has value.

As far as the pay, the EMT is also assuming liability not always covered by the agency for which they work. This liability also should be compensated for. If a burger flipper at McDs drops a burger on the floor, chances are the burger is not going to sue, nor is the mother of the cow from which it came. Also, the burger retails for considerably less than an ambulance ride. Add to that the risk of exposure to pathogens, and the number of back injuries or assaults on EMS personnel in the line of duty and we have a hazardous workplace.

To say that EMS is the only field where entry level personnel feel justified in asking for more money is also inaccurate. I worked in a hospital where an entry level laundry technician made $15 p/h. Housekeepers started at $10.50 with full benefits. And those statistics are 10 years old so I can only imagine what they are paying currently. These were untrained labor positions and required not even the minimal training of the average EMT.

The justification for EMTs making more than minimum is that agencies are making big money off their labor. Using an EMT with a medic instead of 2 medics can increase profit margin for the agency and most companies, interested in keeping employees rather than burning them out and using them up will pay to keep them.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

So you are looking at 10-15 years? Why not just aim to flight medic? Again, nothing wrong with flight nurse (obviously, I am both) but most flight agencies require the minimum of five years ICU/CCU experience after you have become an RN. Suggestion.. most flight services do NOT allow EMS experience for flight nursing.

R/r 911

Im planning on centering my work sched, ICU work, and Paramedic time when im not in ICU. Paramedics here dont have a large enough salary for me to make car payments, car insurance, and 12-1400 a month in rent not including utilities. But, im not really complaning, its what I like and what I enjoy so showing up will be the easy part.