New York's Poorest

[triemal04]

So sorry bossy, but you don't get to reference someone by name with specific comments and then try and backpedal from that. You said what you said...at least stand by it.

And you are still off topic...this isn't about who uses EMT-B's, or how many, or how they are used or where, but what the pay for them should be, and specifically (though I'm flexible on this) what it should be in NYC. And, it's not that EMt-B's are useless, just that they can do very, very little for their patients.

Now, I asked some specific questions, usually the same ones, and so far the only one who has really tried to answer them is the youngest, most inexperienced person here. Would you like to give it a shot?

1. What is it that an EMT-B does MEDICALLY for their patients, (since this is the MEDICAL field) that makes it appropriate to pay them high wages?
2. What should an EMT-B be making? Really, I don't care if it's hourly, monthly, yearly, but let's see a number.
3. Why is it that lower level providers in EMS feel they are entitled to so much when they do so little for their patients?

(for the record, when I've said minimum pay or things like that, I don't mean state/federal minimum wage at all; that's completely ridiculous. I just mean a wage that is commenserate with the care given and responsibilities, which is nil in the case of an EMT-B; doesn't matter if you've been there 10 years, what are you doing for your patient? Next to nothing.)

Just because a service saves some money by hiring an EMT-B is not a reason to pay them more; if that was the case, then see my McDonald's analogy; those guys would be making the big bucks. Pay increases come from doing your job better, which in this case means providing more and better patient care. Something that is essentially impossible at the EMT-B level; there is next to nothing that you can do for a patient.

Your exposure scenario isn't applicable either...on the job injuries and exposures are covered. Doesn't matter where you are, you are covered.

 

[triemal04]

Im planning on centering my work sched, ICU work, and Paramedic time when im not in ICU. Paramedics here dont have a large enough salary for me to make car payments, car insurance, and 12-1400 a month in rent not including utilities. But, im not really complaning, its what I like and what I enjoy so showing up will be the easy part.

Just be aware that you are biting off a huge amount of education and time there. And be aware that it will eat up an enormous amount of your personal life...especially if you are planning on working full-time in an ICU (which I believe is what rid meant) AND as a paramedic. Not that it can't be done...but it won't be easy and your personal life probably will suffer.

Honestly, which do you really prefer? Do you want to work as a paramedic and then flight medic? If that's the case, then don't forget that a national registry cert will allow you to move to most states in the country, and many, many places pay well enough to support a family. Don't be afraid to pack up and move cross country if needed. If you want to work as a flight nurse, maybe just become an RN and work that route.

You are plenty young enough that you still have almost all options available to you, so really think about what it is that you want, and what it will really take to get there.

 

[Ridryder911]

Not to burst any bubbles.. I wished I had a penny for every.. "I wanna be". Realistically, less that 3% make it into a flight program. There is so many reasons. First, they find out the pay is not usually anymore than a regular nurse, as well as getting onto a flight service is very, very difficult. Ironically, I personally believe it is much harder to become a Flight Paramedic than a Flight Nurse. Actually most nurses feel flight nurses are "lower nurses" that could not cut it in nursing. Similar to the same opinion some have about nursing home nurses... it is not a real glorious profession to all.

The other is many do not realize how cramped, and physical restrictions is usually placed. Too tall, too large, clausterphobic etc.. (Yes, there is physical restrictions & yes it is legal)..

Then there is the money issue.. many work 12 some work 24 hour shifts. Some get paid for a full 24, some do not get paid if they are "weathered in".. meaning, no fly, no pay. Yup, it happens.. most nurses depend upon that money.

Now most services are cross training adult to neonate as well. That is a big liability! You are discussing gram weight babies, and those that have the heart cross wired, etc.. Bad stuff.. One has to consider, is it worth the risk for 18 years? (parents can sue up to until the child becomes an adult)..

Again, I love flying but one has to consider a lot of things.. it is a job.

R/r 911

 

[Zephyr]

New York City - Critical Shortage Of EMS Workers

It's just as I feared...

New York City - Critical Shortage Of EMS Workers

06-15-2008 - 2:17 PM

New York City - A shortage of medics and a surge in heat-related 911 calls left the city struggling to respond to medical emergencies last week - and the dangerous situation could worsen as summer intensifies and more FDNY EMS workers jump ship to become firefighters, sources told The Post.

URL to article: http://www.vosizneias.com/17032/2008/06/15/new-york-city-critical-shortage-of-ems-workers/

 

[CFRBryan347768]

It's just as I feared...




New York City - Critical Shortage Of EMS Workers

06-15-2008 - 2:17 PM

New York City - A shortage of medics and a surge in heat-related 911 calls left the city struggling to respond to medical emergencies last week - and the dangerous situation could worsen as summer intensifies and more FDNY EMS workers jump ship to become firefighters, sources told The Post.

URL to article: http://www.vosizneias.com/17032/2008/06/15/new-york-city-critical-shortage-of-ems-workers/

We all knew this was coming, it's no big surprise...so now what you can't just increase the EMT-B hours in a matter of a couple phone calls. This is going to keep continuing until some one get a boot in the rear and revises the EMT-B course, so the pay can get upped(and have a good reason to be raised) and more employees hired.

 

[Ridryder911]

It would had matter if they hired 500 EMT's and 500 Paramedics. NYC is known for their EMS abuse. Nausea & abdominal pains that waited for over two hours, probably could have went in by a cab. Everyone knows she would had probably been triaged to the lobby.

It appears that FDNY has finally competed against its own self.. oh, the irony! So shameful, that they place emphasis on brute instead of brains.. but, I can understand the EMS personnel for leaving. Why be abused, and get low pay for it as well?

Maybe when some of the commissioners or mayor's family die,, they may pay attention. Chances are they will not change anything until it hits home or a few million dollar lawsuits...

R/r 911

 

[mikeylikesit]

Did you guys read the comments posted by the general public at the bottom of the article? shows you what the people think of all this.

 

[CFRBryan347768]

Did you guys read the comments posted by the general public at the bottom of the article? shows you what the people think of all this.

Yeap, seems some of them sahre some of our opinions. Some say up the pay to bring in more employees, and some say(pretty sure some one mentioned this) up the standards and then they have a legit right to up the pay.

 

[daedalus]

Education should not be the sole factor consiudering how much work NYC EMT-Bs actually do. But NYC EMTs go through much more than 150 hours of education. Its not just an EMT-B class. One must be an EMT-B to apply. Than it takes 2.5 to 3 months in the academy once hired. The academy repreats the EMT-B class applicants already took plus EVOC and physical fitness training. Than you must ride for a month with an FTO to make sure you doing things correctly. Tahn they work in the busiest systems in the country. They do deserve more pay.

But yes EMT-Bs need more education

Actually its not that ironic. NYC has a much higher cost of living than most places in the country sometime more than double what it costs elsewhere. NYC EMT-Bs don't make enough to live in NYC and medics don't make off much better.

I agree.
The EMTs are more than a mere 150 hour course. Hell it took me a month of inservices/tests/classes before I could even start my FTO training. These guys got a whole academy. And NYC EMS is a crazy system.

They deserve more, much more.

 

[Ridryder911]

I agree.
The EMTs are more than a mere 150 hour course. Hell it took me a month of inservices/tests/classes before I could even start my FTO training. These guys got a whole academy. And NYC EMS is a crazy system.

They deserve more, much more.

So you went four months instead of the three? Still nothing in comparrision to many other professions that spends years of education and testings..

R/r 911

 

[daedalus]

Im talking about compensation. I do not think these EMTs expect the wages of a doctor or nurse, or even a firefighter. Rid I think they expect enough to make ends meet and have a little bit of a life. Why make the salary of a McDonalds worker when one has to maintain a few certs at his/her own expense, keep up on knowledge and their skill set, take CE classes, and assume the liabilities of patent care? Its more than a mere hope skip and jump from a fast food worker, and therefor the concept of a free market should say an EMT should be compensated more than unskilled labor. And with demand so high, you can expect that wages need to go up. Again it has nothing to do with level of training, but economics.

 

[Ridryder911]

Unfortunately, EMT is considered "blue collar" or technical work. I agree it their pay sucks, but again it will not change until the public perception changes. Read the comments left by the public.. not to overwhelming for EMS, but if was for the fire heroes this would never be debated.

R/r 911

 

[daedalus]

Which again brings us to the issue of advancing our field! There will be no excuse not to pay us well when we all have atleast AA or AS.

 

[firecoins]

The pay for NYC EMTs has little to do with level of training or how EMS is perceived by the public. NYC paramedics have the same problems. NYPD cops have the same problem.

There is a shortage for 2 reasons 1 of which is the use of FDNY EMS as a pathway into the FDNY firefighting side. The other is a low starting salary. EMT-Bs can get paid more working for hospitals that have an agreement with FDNY to man their own 911 BLS and ALS crews. I do my rotations for St. Vincent's in Manhattan. EMTs and Medics make more money doing the same job as FDNY EMTs and Medics in the same exact system.

NYPD rookies make $28,000. There is a shortage of rookie cops. This is compouned by suburban depts starting off at $40,000 and with raises that amount to much more than NYPD's top level of pay. Even Seattle PD has a large billboard on the Westside of Manhattan recruiting low paid cops into Seattle's PD.

This isn't an EMS problem as much as this is a City of NY problem.

 

[VentMedic]

NYPD rookies make $28,000.

You are a couple of years behind on your salary facts.

http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/policeofficer.html


But, there's this little thing about education or military experience as the requirements for hire.

On or before the day of hire, candidates must have successfully completed either:
Sixty (60) college credits with a 2.0 G.P.A. from an accredited college or university, or
Two (2) years of full-time, active military service in the United States Armed Forces with an honorable discharge and have a high school's diploma or its equivalent.

 

[firecoins]

You are a couple of years behind on your salary facts.

http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/policeofficer.html


But, there's this little thing about education or military experience as the requirements for hire.

iHere is the PBA version.
http://www.nycpba.org/archive/ch/07/ch-070105-contract.html

 

[VentMedic]

The date is January 5, 2007 on your article. They got their increase.

For the amount of education they are required, that increase is a good start and they probably deserve more. At least their recruitment requirements are looking more for quality and not just warm bodies. It does make a difference when higher education is factored in for professionalism.

Their promotion of education is also rather impressive.
http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/educational.html

 

[firecoins]

They got their increase.

They did.

For the amount of education they are required, that increase is a good start and they probably deserve more.

They deserve as much as the surrounding communities.

At least their recruitment requirements are looking more for quality and not just warm bodies. It does make a difference when higher education is factored in for professionalism.

at $25,000 , they just got warm bodies.

 

[VentMedic]

at $25,000 , they just got warm bodies.

No, their education requirements were still the same. They get applicants who have 60 credit hours of college and not people with a 3 month "hours based" training course. That's a better foundation to build from.

Oakland, CA's FD dropped their EMT requirement for FF and got 10,000 warm bodies for 20 positions. Out of those 10,000 applicants, 9,900 probably could not pass basic physical tests or background checks. Since this was such a huge mess, the news stations have been following the progress of weeding out the candidates. The physical fitness course was just too embarrassing to watch.

The same with their police department. At $72,000/yr with minimal entry requirements, it will be long process to weed through all the applicants.

Higher wages do not mean you are always going to attract the right people especially for entry level jobs. The screening just gets tougher and more expensive.

 

[firecoins]

No, their education requirements were still the same. They get applicants who have 60 credit hours of college and not people with a 3 month "hours based" training course. That's a better foundation to build from.

Despite the higher educational standards, the $25,000 pay got them warm bodies. The good applicants went to other departments.

Higher wages do not mean you are always going to attract the right people especially for entry level jobs. The screening just gets tougher and more expensive.

No but the higher wages recently negotiated by the NYPD will attract better applicants applying to other better paying depts. NYPD is competing for applicants with other better paying police depts.

FDNY EMS has a shortage of EMTs and medics. Need to solve this problem. Its great that you want to raise the educational standards but this is not going to solve the immediate problems. May be in the future, the educational requirements can be fixed. Until than, a raise will fix the short term problems.