Fezman92
NJ and PA EMT
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Can someone explain to me the mRNA and other “NA” stuff that’s being talked about in regards to the vaccine? Or is this the wrong thread?
mRNA Vaccine
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SandpitMedic
Crowd pleaser
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Nucleic acids? Not only is this the wrong thread, but the wrong website.
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Certainly wrong thread, but (IMHO) not necessarily wrong website. We should welcome the opportunity to teach some of the basics and also point toward more authoritative sources of knowledge so the readers/users of this site can learn and improve their knowledge.
The "NA" stuff is "Nucleic Acid" and there are a few different types of it. Here's a link to the first site I found when I did a search for "types of nucleic acids" and while the reading might be a bit hard to follow for someone that doesn't have much of a science/bio background, the basics are there and it should spark some additional searching and reading. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/b...acid,celled bacteria to multicellular mammals.
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Split out to its own thread.
akflightmedic
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Here is a very simplistic overview of how mRNA works.
The vaccine does NOT contain any virus. NONE. This is not like a flu vaccine or other vaccines where we inject an attenuated (dead) version to hype the body.
This vaccine carries instructions for our own personal cells to take action to a specific trigger.
COVID virus has "crown like" spikes it uses to enter human cells and infect.
The vaccine has this "message" and once injected it will prompt your own body cells to make proteins which mimic the corona virus. The feature being mimicked is the "crown" spikes. So now your body will ramp up and attack any cells with those spikes.
In the future, if/when you are exposed to Corona, the moment those spiked hairdos are recognized, your body will then ramp up and destroy.
The vaccine does NOT contain any virus. NONE. This is not like a flu vaccine or other vaccines where we inject an attenuated (dead) version to hype the body.
This vaccine carries instructions for our own personal cells to take action to a specific trigger.
COVID virus has "crown like" spikes it uses to enter human cells and infect.
The vaccine has this "message" and once injected it will prompt your own body cells to make proteins which mimic the corona virus. The feature being mimicked is the "crown" spikes. So now your body will ramp up and attack any cells with those spikes.
In the future, if/when you are exposed to Corona, the moment those spiked hairdos are recognized, your body will then ramp up and destroy.
mRNA, also known as messenger RNA, is used in eukaryote cells as a way of sending information from the DNA in the nucleus to the ribosome to be made into protein.
As a fairly oversimplified explanation most vaccines show a dead or weakened form of a virus or bacteria in order to build an immune response. This immune response takes several forms, but after about 4-8 weeks is typically only stored in T cells which will recognize said infection if exposed.
mRNA vaccines skip the dead or weakened disease bit by isolating a protein that the cells will be able to recognize on the diseased cell. The mRNA will then use the mitochondria in the patient to convert that mRNA sequence and make that protein. In the case of the SARS-COV-2 vaccines by moderna and Pfizer vaccines will express the same mRNA sequence for the spike protein seen in Covid. Essentially the process uses the patients cells to make the spike protein which the immune system can then recognize and form a response to without exposing the patient to any other parts of the virus.
Historically the hurdle has been that mRNA is extremely fragile. It’s function is to express a small copy of a part of DNA in the nucleus to the endoplasmic reticulum in order to make a protein. By simply injecting a mRNA sequence into a patient it would historically become degraded and useless before it could actually make it to a ribosome.
There have been various attempts to make a carrier mRNA for the past 20 years or so without success. There was (and still is) research into creating a virus carrier for mRNA that could inject a specific portion of RNA or DNA into cells instead of the virus’s own DNA. This has been pretty unsuccessful although the injection of larger portions of DNA could potentially help with some genetic diseases.
The big development into mRNA vaccines this year was the successful development of a protective coating allowing the mRNA to make it through storage and then the cellular membrane without degrading first.
It is important to keep in mind that while mRNA may allow for quicker or more efficacious vaccines in the future that you are limited by the ability to make said proteins inside of the cell. Not all diseases can be immunized against with this method.
As a fairly oversimplified explanation most vaccines show a dead or weakened form of a virus or bacteria in order to build an immune response. This immune response takes several forms, but after about 4-8 weeks is typically only stored in T cells which will recognize said infection if exposed.
mRNA vaccines skip the dead or weakened disease bit by isolating a protein that the cells will be able to recognize on the diseased cell. The mRNA will then use the mitochondria in the patient to convert that mRNA sequence and make that protein. In the case of the SARS-COV-2 vaccines by moderna and Pfizer vaccines will express the same mRNA sequence for the spike protein seen in Covid. Essentially the process uses the patients cells to make the spike protein which the immune system can then recognize and form a response to without exposing the patient to any other parts of the virus.
Historically the hurdle has been that mRNA is extremely fragile. It’s function is to express a small copy of a part of DNA in the nucleus to the endoplasmic reticulum in order to make a protein. By simply injecting a mRNA sequence into a patient it would historically become degraded and useless before it could actually make it to a ribosome.
There have been various attempts to make a carrier mRNA for the past 20 years or so without success. There was (and still is) research into creating a virus carrier for mRNA that could inject a specific portion of RNA or DNA into cells instead of the virus’s own DNA. This has been pretty unsuccessful although the injection of larger portions of DNA could potentially help with some genetic diseases.
The big development into mRNA vaccines this year was the successful development of a protective coating allowing the mRNA to make it through storage and then the cellular membrane without degrading first.
It is important to keep in mind that while mRNA may allow for quicker or more efficacious vaccines in the future that you are limited by the ability to make said proteins inside of the cell. Not all diseases can be immunized against with this method.
OP
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Fezman92
NJ and PA EMT
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So it’s basically “showing a picture” of Corona and telling your body that it needs to attack Corona?
Jim37F
Forum Deputy Chief
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I'm assuming that part is why the vaccines need to be kept in cold storage on dry ice and the like during storage and transport?
Correct. In future development we may find a more stable method of delivery, but I doubt it will be anything that is fine at room temp.
Emily Starton
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This is indeed correct. This is the best way of transporting vaccines as they get worse when the temperature doesn't meet its required temperature.
akflightmedic
Forum Deputy Chief
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I have a 40 page guide on "How to Store and Transport the Vaccine"...there are a ton of very particular details we must follow, all the way down to how many water bottles need to be kept in the fridge to assist with maintaining temperature.
Summit
Critical Crazy
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mRNA is not only unstable in the body, it is incredibly immunogenic, so your immune system would kill the crap out of it without developing immunity to SARS-CoV-2... unless it was hidden from the immune system for a skosh. That is what the technological breakthrough with mRNA vaccines. It isn't the mRNA. It is lipid nanoparticles. These lipids allow the mRNA to survive long enough to make it into your cells. The nanoparticles are fragile. Even shaking the vaccine vial, once unfrozen, can burst the particle and make the vaccine useless, thus the strict "no shaking" instructions.
Once the mRNA makes it into your cell, your cellular machinery (ribosomes) can follow the instructions coded for in the mRNA vaccine which read "make this spike protein." A few copies of protein get made and then the mRNA degrades and is broken down by the cell, the nucleotides recycled as it would be with your innate mRNA. The spike proteins get expressed on the surface and the adaptive immune response, simply put: make things that kill this protein and remember it for the future.
Two things to note:
A. Temperature: Biologicals are commonly stored at ULT. The Moderna breakthrough, as their expertise is mRNA stabilization, allows better temp stability. I don't fully understand it except that they used sugars to temp stabilize.
B. Safety: Your cells normally make proteins like this:
In Nucleus:
1. DNA -> mRNA
In Cytoplasm (ribosomes on the RER):
2. mRNA -> Protein
For the vaccine, you skip step 1.
You hear a lot of speculation about DNA modification or fertility issues by folks who just don't understand the science. When thinking about safety, it is absolutely key to remember that this is a ONE WAY process. mRNA cannot affect the DNA which is protected in the nuclear envelope. Even if you put the mRNA in the envelope, you cannot have homologous recombination with DNA because mRNA is chemically/structurally incompatible.
Once the mRNA makes it into your cell, your cellular machinery (ribosomes) can follow the instructions coded for in the mRNA vaccine which read "make this spike protein." A few copies of protein get made and then the mRNA degrades and is broken down by the cell, the nucleotides recycled as it would be with your innate mRNA. The spike proteins get expressed on the surface and the adaptive immune response, simply put: make things that kill this protein and remember it for the future.
Two things to note:
A. Temperature: Biologicals are commonly stored at ULT. The Moderna breakthrough, as their expertise is mRNA stabilization, allows better temp stability. I don't fully understand it except that they used sugars to temp stabilize.
B. Safety: Your cells normally make proteins like this:
In Nucleus:
1. DNA -> mRNA
In Cytoplasm (ribosomes on the RER):
2. mRNA -> Protein
For the vaccine, you skip step 1.
You hear a lot of speculation about DNA modification or fertility issues by folks who just don't understand the science. When thinking about safety, it is absolutely key to remember that this is a ONE WAY process. mRNA cannot affect the DNA which is protected in the nuclear envelope. Even if you put the mRNA in the envelope, you cannot have homologous recombination with DNA because mRNA is chemically/structurally incompatible.