Medic Cert to Medic Degree

[46Young]

YOU are not a newbie. You have stated on the forums that you are almost 35 y/o. If you had any interest in medicine with your "vast" experience you probably wouldn't be so confused now. Make some decisions or just stay on the engine and stop all the education bashing. To tell the newbies that education is of not important and a union card is all they need will just do them an injustice when EMS does move on to become a profession. Also, not everyone wants to be a FF. Some Paramedics do want to be medical professionals and take the patient care aspect of the job seriously.



This was my post from the other forum on 12/02/09. Any of the information sound familiar?



And this was your reply:



http://www.emtcity.com/index.php/topic/17040-paramedic-cert-to-paramedic-degree/page__st__10

I find it hard to take someone serious who tries so hard to talk people out of a lifetime investment of just two or four years of education because it might take away a year or two of earning potential. You just want to argue for the sake of getting others to agree that a tech cert is all the Paramedic should ever be. And then you did state this:

I work on the txp unit at my FD quite often. I don't find 911 EMS particularly challenging. Satisfying and fun, yes, but not all that challenging. Maybe it's because my paramedic program prepared me well for the field. Maybe it's because my clinicals were in busy city hospitals with competent staff. Maybe it's because my ALS ambulance clinicals were on busy ALS units, who are dispatched only ALS calls. High priority call types only, not stubbed toes, tflu, minor injuries, EDP's, etc. Only ALS. Those BLS calls are important, sure, but the ALS intern should be focusing in on call types that need ALS care. Maybe it's because I immediately began FT work + copious OT in that same system, continuing the same steep learning curve due to encountering a high volume of high acuity pts. Even only one year's experience in that type of system in NY/NJ can equal 3,5, or even 10 years in slower systems, where the medic runs everything from A-Z and sees a disproportinally low volume of sick pts, who need more than the usual V.O.M.I.T. Tx.

NYC (tech cert) medic with 5 years experience, seeing maybe 25 or more pt's per 40 hour workweek, with an ever rapidly increasing pt contact reference, following up afterward with the Attending after challenging calls.

EMS AAS or BA medic with the same 5 years, who sees less pts overall, where maybe one in 10 (if they're lucky) need more than the V.O.M.I.T routine.

This is why NYC 911 experience is generally well received across the country when seeking employment. No one that's left NY, to my knowledge, has had a difficult time transitioning to other systems, nor have they done poorly.

Anyway, I'll always recommend to the 20 y/o living at home to get the 2 year or 4 year degree. Time is on their side, and they're largely insulated from any real expenses. I'l always recommend to the 27 y/o single mother living paycheck to paycheck to take the past of least resistance, and seek a degree when they're better compensated and able to afford it (both tuition and lost opportunities for OT/side work while attending class). I'd also recommend the path of least resistance to the recently unemployed head of the household facing expenses from a motrtgage and such. School will always be there. If I have a family to support, do I want to go to school for 2-3 years making $15/hr, or do I want to take out a year, work for $25/hr, and THEN complete a degree?

A degree (or two or three) ought to be the ultimate goal, but whether it's best to do it sooner rather than later is entirely dependant on each individual's circumstances. This isn't fantasy world. People have very real socioeconomic issues and would benefit greatly by a salary boost and opportunity for side work NOW.

If the medical arts would allow students to do 1-3 classes at a time rather than mandate a full load, perhaps pursuing a degree would be more attractive to many who otherwise don't have the time or means. Like I've said before, degrees in the medical arts are tailored to the young individual who lives at home and has no issues preventing them from going to school FT. Others don't have that luxury.We have families, bills to pay, and often need to work OT and per diem work, either to pay the bills or to save for a house, 529's, etc.

It's nice to say that when there's a will there's a way, that if you really want it you'll work it out, but my children will only be young once. I'm not ok with depriving my family of time with me, nor am I ok with not seeing my children grow up since I'm never home, going to school FT (FT, or nothing at all, if you don't like it, don't enroll). How is the single parent supposed to go to school FT? Who's watching the kids? How is the parent supposed to afford day care?

I got my tech cert, made a bundle of cash the first two years, then joined the fire service where I'm making as much if not more than those with 4-6 year degrees. Now I'm going back to school, while I'm already financially established. If the standards get raised, I'll be ok. I always have a plan "B".


I'm sorry for those that disagree with my plan, not having to give up 4-6 years of my life for FT school to command the salary that I do. I chose the best options available to me. Explain to me how I've made poor decisions given where I'm at now, both financially and regarding my family. I would have been a fool to do anything else in retrospect. I know plenty of people with 4 and 6 year degrees working in Starbucks, Borders, TGIF and such. I have a cousin with an MBA that can't find work. I have another cousin that recently graduated as a teacher that can't find work. How many college grads are out of work at the moment, victims of this economic downturn? You're young, get the degree first, since you can live at home if you can't find work. Time is on your side. If you're older, and have financial obligations, get the job with the higher salary/benefits/retirement as quickly as possible, then worry about degrees later. Time is not on your side. I have yet another cousin making 33/hr working at a hosp. based EMS agency, and also teaches at a medic program, making 30/hr there. Her husband is a FDNY EMS Capt, and also teaches, making the same 30/hr. They both have tech certs an a wealth of NYC 911 experience.

Unlike other professions, if the money's not there, there probably won't be a significant degree movement, when that (degree) time investment can pay off much better in other professions.

 

[46Young]

Vent, just because my viewpoints differ greatly from yours doesn't make me a "troll". You repeat the virtues of education, but oft neglect any considerations to finance and family dynamics. One needs to see the entire picture when making their decisions, not only one side of the coin. We don't live in a vacuum, this isn't fantasy world.

I'd naturally expect you to be hostile to any discussion of financial or family issues, since the alternatives for these individuals don't fall in line with the degree agenda. That's why I said it was amusing that my introduction to financial considerations caused argument. It wasn't originally why I posted in that direction, but you can only hear so much about degrees and how tech grads are (presumably by default) incompetent. I've not heard any strong arguments against my viewpoints regarding finance when considering a degree program vs a tech program, intended for those who are either working professionals or the recently unemployed. We're talking about employment here, after all. Far be it from me to discuss finance in the context of employment and career tracks. It would detract from the "degree no matter what your situation is" agenda, and we can't have that.

 

[VentMedic]

I've not heard any strong arguments against my viewpoints regarding finance when considering a degree program vs a tech program, intended for those who are either working professionals or the recently unemployed. We're talking about employment here, after all. Far be it from me to discuss finance in the context of employment and career tracks. It would detract from the "degree no matter what your situation is" agenda, and we can't have that.

You have heard arguments for education from myself and many others on the different forums. You just don't want to think of the Paramedic as becoming a health care PROFESSIONAL for your own reasons. The Paramedic should join the ranks of becoming a true health care profession.

No other health care profession has tolerated the excuses you have come up with. They saw the need was there as medicine was evolving. They saw the "tech" was no longer good enough for their patients.

All these financial excuses you have come up with are crap when it comes to investing in one's future. Please do not try to discourage people from getting their education because you think a union card is all they need.

You honestly have no clue about college education. You still have no clue about how professions advance even though it has been explained to you by myself and many others on the different forums. Not once did the FD stop me from continuing my education. I also know many of those on this forum who are single mothers or fathers and have worked FT while going to school to get a better education and a solid future for their family. They don't sit around calculating the numbers in their checkbook and whining. They get out and follow through with what needs to be done. Most also have faith in EMS that it will someday evolve into a true health care profession that is recognized as such by the legislative bodies that control reimbursement for professional status.

 

[Alimae03]

Thank you for that on education and on the family point of view. I am glad to hear you guys stop fighting over ones point of view. I do agree that it has to be the right time and that we have to be in the right state inorder to obtain a degree.

 

[VentMedic]

Thank you for that on education and on the family point of view. I am glad to hear you guys stop fighting over ones point of view. I do agree that it has to be the right time and that we have to be in the right state inorder to obtain a degree.

Then EMS is the job for you. You couldn't work in any other medical profession with those excuses. You either get a degree or you find another job which is probably why some are in EMS.

 

[reaper]

If you are in this job for finance, then you picked the wrong job. The only people that make it in this profession are the people that are doing it for the love of the job and the Pt's. They are the ones that gain from your education.

As far as saying that NYC medics, or any big city medics, are better then a rural medic is a huge joke. They may be good at what they do, for the 20 minutes they are with a pt. Rural medics are with Pt's for upwards of two hours or more. Those are the medics that have the experience.

I have worked large cities and very rural areas. I would choose rural, for a new medic. That is where you learn how to care for a pt.

A lot of flight services will pick rural medics or big city medics, in a minute. They know where the experience is coming from.

It is nice to take care of your family, but not at the expense of education. Get the education now. Worry about the future later!

 

[Melclin]

I mentioned to Vent once that one of the key differences between Australian and American EMS is, and pretty much always has been, the emphasis on an extensive education for all prehospital providers with relatively short extensions for those who specialize in certain skills (ALS).

The basic education/training requirements for everyone in EMS has been ~2 years (various combinations of formal education and on the job training) ever since the seventies. The ALS extension education begun with Ambulance officers going off to the coronary care nursing courses. They could keep up, and regularly exceed the RNs, because they already had two years of education/training.

JPINFV said in another forum that it was faulty logic to call all prehospital providers paramedics regardless of level in the same way as Drs are all called Dr regardless of specialty, because all doctors have the same basic education foundation and that wasn't true of paramedics/EMTs etc. It is here. Always has been.

I think its pretty sad that you guys over there talk about a two year "degree" like its a step up. And that's not even for the basic provider, its for your "ALS", honestly, its boggles the mind. When most of the civilized word is moving to a post-bachelors degree, post graduate qualification or physician based ALS, many Americans still seem to think that the Associates Degree, or what we would call a Diploma, is an excessive level of education.

Not to mention the idea that its okay for a poorly cross trained, barely interested FF (who sometimes, I was shocked to learn, view moving from being a paramedic to a ladder operator as a PROMOTION) to be dealing with clinical situations, drugs and procedures that require the knowledge, education and expertise of masters degree level health care professionals, if not a physician.

 

[rhan101277]

I am going to school because I really enjoy the work. I also know that around here, where I live, switching jobs will not cause me financial headache. Since working at 24 on/48 off pays around $1,600 every two weeks here take home pay, that is enough for me to live comfortably. Now in places like Atlanta, Las Vegas and any California city, living on that wage would probably be ridiculous.

Nothing beats getting up in the morning and looking forward to going to work and not dreading it. Look at how much of our lives are spent working.

 

[triemal04]

You were still in elementary school 10 years ago.

You've also changed your opinions to go against whatever I am for. Since I have been consistently pro-education, you have argued against it just so you wouldn't have to agree. Now doesn't that sound a little like elementary school still for you?

I have? Really? Would you like to point out where? I mean, you're all in favor of evidence based practices right, and having proof for why you do something, right? So shouldn't you be able to show exactly where I've done that? Or are you just once again proving that your credibility is lacking and all you can do when proven wrong is insult people? Since I've actually said that I agree with you (in this thread no less) that would seem to be the case here wouldn't it? And for the record I was in highschool 10 years ago...honestly, when all you can do is insult someone instead of actually refuting what is said...says a lot about you.

 

[triemal04]

Did you even bother to look at the links to see what I'm being such a smartarse about? It is all there in black and white for you to read about the changes coming to the NREMT and EMS.

You know...for someone who professes to be as smart as you do, you come up with some silly comments sometimes, with this being one.

While the changes and increases to the EMS curriculum and requirement for accreditation are absolutely great things and a step in the right direction, (let me repeat that so you get it: the changes are GREAT AND A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION) they are not the cure-all that you seem to believe they will be. There is not, and likely won't be, any mandatory requirement to implement these standards; if a state decides that they don't care about their personnel's NREMT certification, they can continue to do whatever they want. If they decide they like having 4 different levels of EMT they can continue to do that. None of the changes and mandatory (more's the pity (that means it's bad)) unless a state cares about the NREMT.

Hopefully at some point it will become mandatory to implement these changes and further increases in the educational level, but right now, while it's a good thing, commenting on it the way you do isn't accurate.

Oh...and isn't Florida a state that doesn't require NREMT status? Guess all those medic-mills down there will be sticking around for awhile won't they? Hmmm...bet that makes you even more bitter.

 

[daedalus]

I mentioned to Vent once that one of the key differences between Australian and American EMS is, and pretty much always has been, the emphasis on an extensive education for all prehospital providers with relatively short extensions for those who specialize in certain skills (ALS).

The basic education/training requirements for everyone in EMS has been ~2 years (various combinations of formal education and on the job training) ever since the seventies. The ALS extension education begun with Ambulance officers going off to the coronary care nursing courses. They could keep up, and regularly exceed the RNs, because they already had two years of education/training.

JPINFV said in another forum that it was faulty logic to call all prehospital providers paramedics regardless of level in the same way as Drs are all called Dr regardless of specialty, because all doctors have the same basic education foundation and that wasn't true of paramedics/EMTs etc. It is here. Always has been.

I think its pretty sad that you guys over there talk about a two year "degree" like its a step up. And that's not even for the basic provider, its for your "ALS", honestly, its boggles the mind. When most of the civilized word is moving to a post-bachelors degree, post graduate qualification or physician based ALS, many Americans still seem to think that the Associates Degree, or what we would call a Diploma, is an excessive level of education.

Not to mention the idea that its okay for a poorly cross trained, barely interested FF (who sometimes, I was shocked to learn, view moving from being a paramedic to a ladder operator as a PROMOTION) to be dealing with clinical situations, drugs and procedures that require the knowledge, education and expertise of masters degree level health care professionals, if not a physician.

Well said!!

 

[daedalus]

You know...for someone who professes to be as smart as you do, you come up with some silly comments sometimes, with this being one.

While the changes and increases to the EMS curriculum and requirement for accreditation are absolutely great things and a step in the right direction, (let me repeat that so you get it: the changes are GREAT AND A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION) they are not the cure-all that you seem to believe they will be. There is not, and likely won't be, any mandatory requirement to implement these standards; if a state decides that they don't care about their personnel's NREMT certification, they can continue to do whatever they want. If they decide they like having 4 different levels of EMT they can continue to do that. None of the changes and mandatory (more's the pity (that means it's bad)) unless a state cares about the NREMT.

Hopefully at some point it will become mandatory to implement these changes and further increases in the educational level, but right now, while it's a good thing, commenting on it the way you do isn't accurate.

Oh...and isn't Florida a state that doesn't require NREMT status? Guess all those medic-mills down there will be sticking around for awhile won't they? Hmmm...bet that makes you even more bitter.

I think that the changes being made, while in the right direction, are entirely pathetic baby steps, and very late to arrive. I think that ventmedic doubts the upcoming changes are a cure all, and I think that she likely believes the same as me.

 

[triemal04]

I think that the changes being made, while in the right direction, are entirely pathetic baby steps, and very late to arrive. I think that ventmedic doubts the upcoming changes are a cure all, and I think that she likely believes the same as me.

I hope that's not what she thinks, but that is the way it's been coming across recently.

I don't know if I go so far to call it pathetic baby steps; bringing everyone (if the standards are followed that is) to the same level and requiring accreditation is good. If nothing else it'll great a base that will make it easier to increase the standards later on. But there is still a hell of a long way to go.

 

[JPINFV]

I'd naturally expect you to be hostile to any discussion of financial or family issues, since the alternatives for these individuals don't fall in line with the degree agenda. That's why I said it was amusing that my introduction to financial considerations caused argument. It wasn't originally why I posted in that direction, but you can only hear so much about degrees and how tech grads are (presumably by default) incompetent. I've not heard any strong arguments against my viewpoints regarding finance when considering a degree program vs a tech program, intended for those who are either working professionals or the recently unemployed. We're talking about employment here, after all. Far be it from me to discuss finance in the context of employment and career tracks. It would detract from the "degree no matter what your situation is" agenda, and we can't have that.

Where's the tech program for the recently unemployed or people with families so that they can obtain unrestricted licenses to practice medicine? Heck, one major difference between prehospital care and medicine is that there really is a lack of physicians (especially primary care physicians) unlike paramedics. A lot of my classmates are married with children, yet are still putting in an insane amount of time to get their education instead of looking for an easy way to obtain said license. Why doesn't the school offer them flexible hours different from everyone else?

 

[Melclin]

Where's the tech program for the recently unemployed or people with families so that they can obtain unrestricted licenses to practice medicine? Heck, one major difference between prehospital care and medicine is that there really is a lack of physicians (especially primary care physicians) unlike paramedics. A lot of my classmates are married with children, yet are still putting in an insane amount of time to get their education instead of looking for an easy way to obtain said license. Why doesn't the school offer them flexible hours different from everyone else?

I was just about to say: "Well I'll just trot off to the local tech school and get my Doctors for Dummies cert. I'm not really in the right position at the moment to get my MD, but I'll just practice medicine anyway, and I'll finish my degree down the track sometime when it suits me, and I can scrape together the credits, from umpteen dozen crappy so called universities". But I won't seeing as you beat me to it, albeit more seriously.

 

[JPINFV]

Oh, here's a fire example. On The Academy: OCFA, a number of the recruits have families. Why doesn't OCFA offer the recruits with families additional time off and an easier schedule?

 

[triemal04]

Oh, here's a fire example. On The Academy: OCFA, a number of the recruits have families. Why doesn't OCFA offer the recruits with families additional time off and an easier schedule?

Because that would be giving someone time off and an easier schedule from their job. I see where you were going with this, but it's only a semi-accurate comparison. Yes, they are still learning how to do their job, same as someone who's still in school, but they are also being paid/have accessed their benefits while doing so. Close, but not quite.

And don't take this to mean that I'm on one side or another of this argument. A degree should be mandatory. Hopefully it will be one day. Period. When that happens if it takes someone longer to attain it due to the circumstances of their life, that's unfortunate, but it's still possible to accomplish, just on a longer timeline. Currently I'd rather that someone went for the degree right off the bat. If they don't and soon enough realize that they should have one and start working on accomplishing that...they are doing what they need to, so it's a start.

 

[emstchr]

Unfortunately medic mills (not all private/tech schools are bad, but a few hurt the reputations of the rest) and a lack of a national standard for training and testing will be with us for some time...in Florida and elswhere...as long as it is profitable and our profession continues to speak with a fractured voice. As long as the agendas of public, private, fire, non-fire, volunteer and paid providers point in different directions, progress will be slow and painful.

 

[46Young]

You have heard arguments for education from myself and many others on the different forums. You just don't want to think of the Paramedic as becoming a health care PROFESSIONAL for your own reasons. The Paramedic should join the ranks of becoming a true health care profession.

No other health care profession has tolerated the excuses you have come up with. They saw the need was there as medicine was evolving. They saw the "tech" was no longer good enough for their patients.

All these financial excuses you have come up with are crap when it comes to investing in one's future. Please do not try to discourage people from getting their education because you think a union card is all they need.

You honestly have no clue about college education. You still have no clue about how professions advance even though it has been explained to you by myself and many others on the different forums. Not once did the FD stop me from continuing my education. I also know many of those on this forum who are single mothers or fathers and have worked FT while going to school to get a better education and a solid future for their family. They don't sit around calculating the numbers in their checkbook and whining. They get out and follow through with what needs to be done. Most also have faith in EMS that it will someday evolve into a true health care profession that is recognized as such by the legislative bodies that control reimbursement for professional status.

EMS missed the opportunity to advance like other healthcare professions. It's likely that those analyzing EMS as a career path won't be willing to risk investing in a 2-4 year degree for a small chance, only a small chance of things improving in the future. As it is now, the pay, benefits, conditions and retirement aren't worthy of someone with a 2-4 year degree save for a handful of places.

I wish I had an answer as to how those working in EMS could be effectively organized to push for a better deal. The profession is greatly transient and fragmented as it is. It's difficult to talk someone into getting a degree just to enter a profession where it's the norm to be paid little, and work under poor conditions. I know that other professions became educated and then lobbied for a better deal. I don't see EMS organizing to any great degree given the current conditions, not without prior organization (union, perhaps) that will raise pay/benefits to a minimum standard that would attract more to stay in it for a career, rather than just a stepping stone. Anyone with any sense will balk at what's available in EMS as a career and direct their energy towards a degree in other healthcare fields, which are more financially rewarding.

You can't bank on "faith". It's too risky.

So you say that there are single parents going to school FT while working FT? That may work if they're already paid well in their current job, and also have family willing to care for their children in their absence. I'm referring to school age children or younger, not teenagers who don't require child care and txp to/from school. If a single parent is working FT and going to school FT for several years, they'll spend a small fortune in child care expenses as well as tuition. So now they deferred maybe two years of earning while paying out a fortune in child care and are under a mountain of debt. For the single parent I don't see how that works without significant help from family. Many don't have that good of a support system. For those in similar positions, and also those newly unemployed with a mortgage to pay, doing a year or so vs three there's no question.

It's not crap, it's called real life. Thank the unwillingness for healthcare degree programs to allow PT participation, the tech school industry for providing a quicker, more fiscally friendly option, and lack of organization for the current state of things.

 

[JPINFV]

So you say that there are single parents going to school FT while working FT? That may work if they're already paid well in their current job, and also have family willing to care for their children in their absence. I'm referring to school age children or younger, not teenagers who don't require child care and txp to/from school. If a single parent is working FT and going to school FT for several years, they'll spend a small fortune in child care expenses as well as tuition. So now they deferred maybe two years of earning while paying out a fortune in child care and are under a mountain of debt. For the single parent I don't see how that works without significant help from family. Many don't have that good of a support system. For those in similar positions, and also those newly unemployed with a mortgage to pay, doing a year or so vs three there's no question.

It's not crap, it's called real life. Thank the unwillingness for healthcare degree programs to allow PT participation, the tech school industry for providing a quicker, more fiscally friendly option, and lack of organization for the current state of things.

www.fafsa.gov I heard that if you fill that out while attending a legitimate institution of higher learning that you qualify for federal student loans. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and invest in your future. Heck, I know at least one single parent in my class. She ain't workin' full time to the best of my knowledge.