Medic Cert to Medic Degree

[46Young]

15 months tells us nothing. That is the problem with tech school training. You might have gone 1 night per week for 15 months. Even a 110 hour EMT course can be stretched out to a year by going just two hours a week which some do to accomondate some places that use volunteer.

Do you think a handful of health care professions are the only ones that go to college? You also have used the ones who require the least amount of education for entry level which is the RN and RRT. Of course both of those are still well over 2x the amount of training and education than the Paramedic. Even the LVN program is longer.

Did you happen to think that people of all ages have been going to colleges to get degrees for many, many decades or a couple of centuries? College is nothing new. It is not just a FF that can buy a house. Not everyone with a college education is stupid about finances or too poor to buy a house.



You really keep harping on the fact that you believe education = people who are stupid about finances and a tech school cert is the only way to go. Are you not even going to encourage you own children to go to college? I expect you think saving for your kids college education just takes money away from your own needs. A couple months of tech school should find them a decent union laborer job. They don't need none of that education to get JOB and who cares they have a career with opportunities or even a JOB they like.

Take a good look around you at others such as those who do work in health care that require no less than a 4 year degree which is now many RNs and RRTs. SLPs and OTs now need Masters. PTs need a doctorate. They made the sacrifices to get their cert and state licenses. Those that were serious about their profession did not just whine and whine. They wanted a career in something they know could help patients and give them some satifaction in knowing that. It is not just a JOB to them.

How about the accountants that help you balance your checkbook? Do you think they whined like you have about education when a 4 year degree is entry with a Masters preferred for their profession? What about the person who runs the art gallery in your area? Did they think 4 or 6 years of college was too much to get the job they desired? What about the teachers at your kids' schools? They needed at least a Bachelors with a Masters or even doctorate. Would you send you kid to a school where all the teachers needed just a 1 year cert? Well, maybe YOU would. But do you think all of these teachers are living in the projects or skid row?

Coming out with all the pitiful broke and divorce crap is just something to justify why YOU don't want to go to school. Not everyone who gets an education past high school is ignorant about finances and has an unstable marriage.



The experience thing is not always true in the professional world of medicine or in anything. You won't even be considered for the job if you don't have the education. As I have stated many, many times, the Paramedic is one of the older allied health occupations and the only one besides MA, Phlebotomist and OR tech that does not require any degree.

You could come to us seeking a job as a flight medic with all your years of experience but I can guarantee you will not get hired since you barely have the minimal requirements to be a Paramedic. You have no desire to advance your eduation except for maybe a weekend cert at a tech school and believe those with education are poor and financially ignorant. You have not mentioned anything about patient care or what the taxpayers deserve with all your rambling against education. That is not the professional we want doing patient care or representing our company.

How can you even speak about what a degree in EMS can do when you didn't even know firemedics existed until a couple years ago? You really don't know very much about EMS at all yet you are coming across as THE WORD.

Did you read Melclin's post?

The U.S. education for Paramedic is an embarrassment when compared to many other countries. For it to continue to attract those who make excuses about not getting an education is even more of an embarrassment. It also makes one wonder that if you have so many excuses about not getting an education, what excuses do you come up with when doing patient care if the protocol is a little too long for your liking. Do you take shortcuts there also? It sounds like some are looking for the easy way out of things be it education or their marriage.

You are only looking for a job while others who get their education are looking for a career which might also give them more opportunities. I would rather be someone living within my means in a modest home with a career I enjoyed than a JOB just to pay the bills or one that gives bragging rights about what a great bank account they have. Those are usually the ones who do have marital problems because there is no room for the spouse when your only focus is your checkbook.

I understand the importance of education. I've been investing for my childrens' college costs shortly after paying off the medic school debt less than 6 months post grad.

At each point career wise I've weighed the prospect of pursuing a degree vs increasing my compensation, with a long term strategy in mind.

When my daughter was born, I chose the 15 month paramedic program over the two year + ASN program, figuring that I could pursue that degree at a later date, while being better compensated at my job, to provide financial security for my family. The EMT salary wasn't cutting it, and we needed money quick, since my wife was recently laid off. I had the option of dong the ASN, as there was plenty of availability in the area. I could've worked at SUNY Stonybrook making over 65k to start with a pension.

It was at that time that I learned about how well they take care of firemedics at my present place of employment. 65k in a few years on the Island, where property taxes alone run from 9-10k/yr and higher, vs homes in the 250's here, and an identical starting salary, plus the DROP at the end of retirement. I chose this job, and still have the option of going back to school, which I'm currently doing, since my rookie year has passed.

Each decision I made was for financial reasons. I also knew that with each decision the option of school was still there, and now I'm capitalizing on that fact.

I simply used the options afforded to me. If they weren't available, I would've went for the ASN right off the bat. Don't blame me, blame the system. It's obvious that I chose the best path, since I'm still going back to school after secureing a safe, secure career. The decision to go for the EMS AAS is simple - I'll expand my knowledge and position myself for a BA for a future admin position. I'll go for the ASN second, when I have some more tenure, and can make do without OT.

You don't want to get into a discussion with me over personal finance.

 

[alphatrauma]

Great read guys... gold! :beerchug:

 

[VentMedic]

I understand the importance of education. I've been investing for my childrens' college costs shortly after paying off the medic school debt less than 6 months post grad. [/quote?

Just out of curiousity...how much did you pay for your Paramedic program?

 

[VentMedic]

here is just one example

Portland Community College Paramedic Program http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/emt.pdf

Portland Community College RN Program
http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

You will see right now they are the same amount of college credits. When I was going to PCC, the Paramedic program had more clinical/field hours(documented hours not college credit hours) than the nursing program and I am sure it still does. Plus alot of Paramedic students are also EMT-Intermediates in school and those hours along with basic hours is more training in the end.

But here is the real kicker.... both those degrees are required in Oregon both those degrees have 107 credits and are both AAS.... but when the Paramedic graduates he/she will make significantly less than the nurse. We have had a degree for 10 years in Oregon for Paramedics, yet I dont think its done anything for us pay wise. We get screwed in Oregon IMO

So what is your point?

That degree is what a Paramedic should have. It should be equal to that of an RN in time and credits?

Every other health care professionals must graduate for an accredited program for their profession with the same minimum entry to sit for the same national exam for their certification to get a license in their state.

For EMS we can not even decide what should be the titles for the providers so we have over 50 different ones to choose from. Look at Washington State for a good laugh. Each title or level is based on one skill.

Dude...get a clue. The reason you are not paid higher is that the Paramedic is still held nation wide to the standard of the lowest denominator. Right now the lowest denominator is about 624 hours hours of training. Get those in the other 48 or 49 states to see the importance of a degree and you will see the benefits. You've already heard plenty of excuses from 46Young who has a cozy FD job and really doesn't care what the profession of EMS does especially when it concerns promoting the status of the Paramedic which is not his primary title. Unfortunately there are thousands just like him.

You don't have to live in Oregon and get a degree to work as a Parmaedic. If you don't to go to college, you can move to TX or any other state to work with those who only have a few hundred hours of training so you won't feel underpaid for your education.

For goodness sakes! It is only a 2 year degree. I bet a rather large percentage of RNs in your state already have their 4 year degree and are working on their Masters.

 

[46Young]

I understand the importance of education. I've been investing for my childrens' college costs shortly after paying off the medic school debt less than 6 months post grad. [/quote?

Just out of curiousity...how much did you pay for your Paramedic program?

6k. We paid a grand and borrowed 5 from family. We were living paycheck to paycheck since my wife was recently laid off. The immediate salary bump along with OT and per diem work allowed me to pay it off in short fashion.

Since it finally dawned on me that I should legitimize my paramedic degree with an actual degree, I've been telling anyone I've come across that they should do the same, or go degree right away if they're still BLS. They'll be sure to be properly educated, where with a tech school they may be somewhat prepared but will need to fill in the gaps with self study (like me). They'll be able to leapfrog past admin with an EMS BA, since most of these jokers I've seen in EMS admin have little formal education, but just happened to be with their respective agencies from the start and promoted due to seniority.

I ran into our OMD while he was attending at a local hosp. I asked his thoughts on the direction he sees EMS going, if we'll eventually go to an AAS as a minimum. He said what others have said previously - the individual states aren't required to follow the national standard. States with a high proportion of rural areas will resist since EMT-I's are easier to come by than medics.

As far as our particular dept, he did want them to both eliminate the EMT-I as an ALS provider and require an EMS AAS to be employed as a firemedic. Admin responded that they don't have enough of a qualified ALS applicant pool as it is to include that as a condition of employment. Plenty of medics apply, but many are also failing the CPAT, psych, poly, medical, etc. etc. We've dismissed some from the academy, both from the suppression portion and during the ALS internship for failing to meet minimum standards. What the dept has done is eliminate EMT-I's as being considered "medics" for employment. They're also sending their incumbents to medic school for a 2 year degree, the same place I'm going to for the EMS AAS. For the dept to foot the bill and take them off the road for school, they need to complete all of the pre-reqs before consideration.

So, we've now eliminated the EMT-I as an ALS career track, making EMT-P the minimum standard. Incumbents will be trained via a degree program. This will likely result in these degree medics promoting ahead of any tech cert medics into future admin positions, a definite advantage. We also have a 16 week field internship that is included during the recruit process. This is 36 hours/wk on a medic unit, during the week, from 0700-1900, only at busy stations. The recruits also spend 4 hours/wk at our EMS training center for lecture from PA's, an RN and RT, along with skills testing using sim-man/sim baby with a living room mock up and an ambulance mock up on site. This equals 576 hours on the bus, less a holiday or two, with 64 hours of lecture/skills instruction from qualified instructors. That's more ambulance time than many medic programs. These interns had also went through recert for their alphabet cards prior to the ALS internship.

It's definitely more than most FD's do to ensure compentency in their EMS personnel. A degree isn't yet the standard, but that's more a function of availability of qualified applicants. The more that apply, the more conditions of employment you can impose.

If organization of EMS remains a largely impossible task at the moment, there's really only one other way to effect a movment of employers requiring degrees for employment - the few that hold degrees will go for the BA, then later promote to admin. positions where they can change policy. These employers will have to offer a better deal than their competitors for this to work, however. If employers do this right now, they won't have anyone qualified to apply. Sure, that would cause future applicants to come with diploma in hand, except that they won't survive the medic shortage they've created at their agency in the interim.

The reason I bring this up is that other healthcare agencies have become educated before seeking compensation. So few hold degrees in EMS that it's currently impossible to require degree for employment in most places. In the case of EMS I don't see many going degree over cert without the compensation already being in place. The industry expanded with only tech certs being required. Sure, compensation has been low due to lack of education, but it's now a catch 22. Organize/unionize.

 

[VentMedic]

Sure, compensation has been low due to lack of education, but it's now a catch 22. Organize/unionize.

We've had unions for decades. What have they done for EMS to get degrees? What are their opinions on the 50 different certs? This has occurred over the past 40 years and I have yet to see any union say a thing about unifying EMTs (A-B-C-D-E-F-P or whatever) when it comes to the titles or education. Ever wonder why medic mills are so prominent in a fire based EMS state like Florida? The quicker the better.

 

[46Young]

Not caring what EMS does as a profession isn't entirely accurate. I much prefer being out on the street as a 911 medic over working as an RN. I also had an interest in fire, but not as much as EMS. It was at about the time that I realized EMS in it's current state is largely a dead end job is when I finally decided to punt (plan to get out of EMS FT) and get the ASN. It was also at this time that I was made aware of the dept I'm currently employed at. It was either work a job that I would generally enjoy (RN) in an area with an absurdly high cost of living, or do the two jobs that I would like even more at the same time (firemedic, not medicfire -that doesn't roll off the tongue as well) and be comfortable to boot.

I'm currently advocating 2 year degrees (and beyond) locally. I'm also telling my friends at NSLIJ the same thing. If nothing changes, however, I'm still good. I'd like things to get better, but we won't be affected if they don't.

I wasn't willing to gamble on things maybe changing. It's too iffy to help foster change for 10-20 years or more without a guarantee of anything actually changing. The problem is that many other's aren't willing to gamble, either.

 

[46Young]

We've had unions for decades. What have they done for EMS to get degrees? What are their opinions on the 50 different certs? This has occurred over the past 40 years and I have yet to see any union say a thing about unifying EMTs (A-B-C-D-E-F-P or whatever) when it comes to the titles or education. Ever wonder why medic mills are so prominent in a fire based EMS state like Florida? The quicker the better.

They haven't done anything for EMS to get degrees. What I'm getting at is that more would see it as worth their trouble to go with the EMS AAS if there were higher paying positions available than what is the industry standard currently. Unionization or other strong political organization may be able to help with that (compensation). Nothing else will at the moment.

Nowadays, with so many unemployed, losing their homes and such, with educated professionals unable to find work with their chosen degree, future students will be much more selective in their choice of degree, seeking compensation and job availability/security as the highest priorities. EMS at the moment would appear unattractive as a choice for a degree.

 

[RALS504]

AS & BS in EMS:
http://www.roswell.enmu.edu/index.php

http://www.roswell.enmu.edu/degree_plans_html/0911/e90911EmergencyMedSerAS/index.html

Easy and cheap AS degree if you have your NREMT-P.