Medic Cert to Medic Degree

[46Young]

If Paramedics at least had college level A&P and pharmacology classes it would seriously be easier to teach them the advanced concepts needed for CCT and Flight. It is sad when we have to dumb down explainations for something like CPAP to "it pushes lung water" rather than discussing how it affects the hemodynamics of the cardiopulmonary system. Or, when the pharmacology is dumbed down to "lido numbs the heart".

For those who want to teach, they should have no less than a B.S. or B.A. I had to get a Masters to teach in the college system. Part of the reason EMS is lagging is that there are too few educated mentors. In the tech schools, where being an instructor usually requires just a cert in EMS, you have the very minimally educated trying to teach those who may meet only the entry level of a GED or high school diploma.

You have been too closed minded in your FD that you are clueless as to what is out there in the world of EMS and what the profession needs for leaders. You also have a negative attitude about any "management" unless it is in the ranks of the FD.

Leadership also does not always equate "management". The leaders we need are the educated individuals providing patient care. For Flight and CCT, RNs and RRTs are expected to have much more than just a mere 2 year degree. Their educators in the colleges have no less than a Masters degree. Professionalism at the bedside and the foundation to advance in clinical knowledge is a necessity. It requires much more than just getting a couple of weekend cert patches. To some in EMS, the ACLS class is the equivalent of a college degree. That mentality needs to go away. As well, so does the monkey see monkey do way of teaching with just a skill and no education to back it up.

It is time EMS steps up to become critical thinkers with guidelines rather than recipes that must be followed exactly. That is what Flight and CCT teams should be and EMS should get to that level also or at least strive for it. That is the "leader" of tomorrow.

Fair enough. I'm going to knock out the EMS AAS, then I'll get back to you with a new perspective. It'll be interesting since I've worked 911 hosp based, third service, and fire based, with a tech cert.

So what do you mean by my negative attitude towards management? My complaints have been mostly about favoritism and a general failure to consider the employees needs. It's typically that the system comes first, and the employee comes in at a distant second. There ought to be compromise. One hand washes the other, not domination by management or domination by labor.

Anyway, since tech schools far outnumber degree programs nationwide, tech grads ought to be persuaded by the educated to complete the degree. Here, at the worst, it's 31 credits to completion, and it can be sone as slowly or quickly as needed, given conflicts from work and home life.

 

[VentMedic]

Fair enough. I'm going to knock out the EMS AAS, then I'll get back to you with a new perspective. It'll be interesting since I've worked 911 hosp based, third service, and fire based, with a tech cert.

If you go into this thinking you know it all and have nothing more to learn you are just taking a class spot from someone else who is serious about medicine.

You either want to learn more or you don't. You have yet to state anything in your many posts about patient care and the benefits that might come out of having someone who a little more than what a tech cert brings. Many people on the different forums have tried to stress that to you but you still seem to miss the point totally.

You are with a FD where EMS is probably just an add on for them and not to be taken for any more worth than extra money for the department to stay functioning.

The senior members on another forum had it right. You are actually just trolling your anti-education views to get a response from those with education and who are serious about providing quality patient care. In other words, you and atropine are exactly alike.

 

[46Young]

If you go into this thinking you know it all and have nothing more to learn you are just taking a class spot from someone else who is serious about medicine.

You either want to learn more or you don't. You have yet to state anything in your many posts about patient care and the benefits that might come out of having someone who a little more than what a tech cert brings. Many people on the different forums have tried to stress that to you but you still seem to miss the point totally.

You are with a FD where EMS is probably just an add on for them and not to be taken for any more worth than extra money for the department to stay functioning.

The senior members on another forum had it right. You are actually just trolling your anti-education views to get a response from those with education and who are serious about providing quality patient care. In other words, you and atropine are exactly alike.

You're hurting my feelings.

My dept's been dual role for many years, since it's beginning as a paid dept, with a well funded fleet, EMS career tracks up to BC, and liberal protocols with only a few OLMC options necessary, a 16 week field internship for new ALS providers, we're in the process of upgrading all of our I's to P's via a degree program as well. But whatever, you've got it all figured out.

What I meant earlier is that I'll look back after having completed the degree and see what difference it would have had in pt care. Like I've said before, not many in NYC have medic degrees and I've worked with some very competent, professional individuals. But I don't know why I bother telling you that. In your eyes no one can possibly be good at EMS without a degree. Pure arrogance. I'll complete it, and see what the difference really is. I'll have the somewhat unique perspective of having worked each type of delivery model, and then getting the degree. I'll be able to really see the difference. Perhaps there really is a significant difference. I'll know when I finish the AAS. Sticks and stones.

 

[VentMedic]

What I meant earlier is that I'll look back after having completed the degree and see what difference it would have had in pt care. Like I've said before, not many in NYC have medic degrees and I've worked with some very competent, professional individuals. But I don't know why I bother telling you that. In your eyes no one can possibly be good at EMS without a degree. Pure arrogance. I'll complete it, and see what the difference really is. I'll have the somewhat unique perspective of having worked each type of delivery model, and then getting the degree. I'll be able to really see the difference. Perhaps there really is a significant difference. I'll know when I finish the AAS. Sticks and stones.

But then what education to you have to judge others for their competency? If some look good in uniform and can talk a big talk, they are really competent according to some. NYC is not exactly known for its EMS. Lee County, Seattle and Wake county are known for their EMS. Seattle requires much more training and education than NYC. Lee county likes to see its Paramedics get their A.S. degree at the local college.

Again, if you do not really have a desire to learn more and are entering this with the attitude you have displayed on the forums, let someone who does want to learn take that seat.

In my eyes I would like to see EMS become a profession. It is the only one besides OR tech, phlebotimist and MA that doesn't have at least a minimum of a two year degree. Techs were great in the 1960s but not with today's medical advancements. The fact that you can run through a recipe and maybe start an IV should no longer be good enough.

 

[46Young]

But then what education to you have to judge others for their competency? If some look good in uniform and can talk a big talk, they are really competent according to some. NYC is not exactly known for its EMS. Lee County, Seattle and Wake county are known for their EMS. Seattle requires much more training and education than NYC. Lee county likes to see its Paramedics get their A.S. degree at the local college.

Again, if you do not really have a desire to learn more and are entering this with the attitude you have displayed on the forums, let someone who does want to learn take that seat.

In my eyes I would like to see EMS become a profession. It is the only one besides OR tech, phlebotimist and MA that doesn't have at least a minimum of a two year degree. Techs were great in the 1960s but not with today's medical advancements. The fact that you can run through a recipe and maybe start an IV should no longer be good enough.

Your lack of confidence in NYC EMS is merely an opinion. Sure, the system is fragmented with many hospitals and two privates providing units along with the FDNY, but when I refer to the abilites and knowledge of NYC medics, it's from my personal observation. I was there and you weren't. I'm referring in particular to the hospital based medics from NSLIJ and NYC Presbyterian mostly. NSLIJ has a notoriously tough entrance exam, and an internship process spanning several months, to ensure competency. Many have been let go during the internship. I've compared these medics to those I've run with in VA and SC, and I've noticed a marked inferiority from the SC medics, and a mixed bag in VA. So, I'm comparing my NY observations to those in other states, all real life examples.

Since there are so many different agencies providing EMS in NYC, the standing orders are somewhat conservative. Deviation from the cookbook, to follow evidence based medicine requires OLMC contact. This is so the physician can speak with the medic on a case by case basis to see if they have a sufficient knowledge base to be granted lattitude in Tx. Otherwise, it's "just txp to the hosp".

Anyway, instead of constantly pointing out tech cert medics' perceived inferiorities ad nauseum, persuade them instead of the career development benefit, expanded knowledge base, and relative ease of upgrading their tech cert to a degree. You'll get much better results that way rather than alienating some. Every degree medic is one step closer to the goal, right? For what it's worth, I've been telling medics at my FD, my IFT side job, and my former co-workers at NSLIJ about the career benefits and ease in completing the degree. Do the same instead of bashing medics for going the tech route.

The way I see it, the overwhelming majority of aspiring medics will go the tech route if it's a viable option. I, like others, didn't even know that there was a difference from a tech program to a degree program, other than a few electives and another year of time commitment. It was naive, sure, but I'm positive that many are just as ignorant to the differences as I was. As such, since the ratio of tech medics to degree medics will likely increase in favor of tech medics for the forseeable future, greater overall numbers of degree medics will be realized by taking existing medics and legitimizing their education by completing the EMS AAS. I don't see a significant movement to degrees in the near future otherwise, based on the type of people that EMS currently attracts. Bashing newbies on internet forums will only alienate them. They'll likely just stop participating on the forums in short fashion, and instead seek advice from their peers, who are likely to be tech grads statistically speaking. Would you rather bash the up and comers, or convert the masses?

 

[ExpatMedic0]

It is required in my state to have atleast an AAS for all Paramedics to be Oregon Paramedics. I have what is called a provisional medic cert which mean I Have to finnish my degree in 2 years or they yank my cert.

In terms of Seattle and medic 1... yeah medic 1 guys are good paramedics but they dont do most of the transports or patient care in King County (Seattle) AMR does with EMT-B's. There are far more Paramedics I would think in NYC since Seattle is predominantly a BLS system.

Regarding patient care and degrees, we all are tested and certified as Paramedics by the same body (in your state) or the NREMT for competency. Ive met plenty of medics with certs that out preform Bachelor degree's medics.

All thats in most AAS (community college) programs that I have seen is mainly general education and nothing related to patient care or pre-hospital care directly. Although I do think it will help paramedics with pay raises and how we are seen professionally.

 

[VentMedic]

It is required in my state to have atleast an AAS for all Paramedics to be Oregon Paramedics. I have what is called a provisional medic cert which mean I Have to finnish my degree in 2 years or they yank my cert.

In terms of Seattle and medic 1... yeah medic 1 guys are good paramedics but they dont do most of the transports or patient care in King County (Seattle) AMR does with EMT-B's. There are far more Paramedics I would think in NYC since Seattle is predominantly a BLS system.

Regarding patient care and degrees, we all are tested and certified as Paramedics by the same body (in your state) or the NREMT for competency. Ive met plenty of medics with certs that out preform Bachelor degree's medics.

All thats in most AAS (community college) programs that I have seen is mainly general education and nothing related to patient care or pre-hospital care directly. Although I do think it will help paramedics with pay raises and how we are seen professionally.

What a sad statement for you to bash the state of Oregon after what they have tried to do to improve professionalism in EMS.

Are you saying college level A&P and pharmacology is useless?

Move out of Oregon to some place like California or even TX where 624 hours of training is all that is required. Try working with some of the 3 month wonders to see what these programs have attracted to EMS.

There will be some who aren't outstanding regardless of education but I would much rather have a room full of Paramedics who put forth the effort to be a good Paramedic rather than a bunch of bubba dudes who saw a cool TV show and went to a PDQ medic mill with no prerequisites. The only requirement was to be breathing. If some of these schools could get the dead to sign the loan papers even that wouldn't be necessary.

There reason the NREMT still tests at the same level is that EMS is still held to the standard of the lowest denominator. Congratulations that you passed a test based on a 10th grade text book.

You should be proud that you passed courses that required some college level reading skills even if a few were electives. These courses might even improve your writing and spelling capabilities which is essential on the PCRs.

 

[triemal04]

What a sad statement for you to bash the state of Oregon after what they have tried to do to improve professionalism in EMS.

Are you saying college level A&P and pharmacology is useless?

What a sad statement for you to make about something which you are uninformed and unqualified to speak about (Oregon's Paramedic degree and Oregon EMS in general). And believe me, there are plenty of unprofessional yet professionally employed paramedics in Oregon, degree and all. Add in the bs the state is pulling now with the system...yeah...hush up until you are better informed.

Oregon does not require a pharmacology course to be certified as a paramedic. Out of the 93 credits required (100+ when you figure in prereqs for some of the classes) the majority do have some bearing on EMS or medical care, but not all. There's 19 I'd say that fall into the category of being "filler" for the degree, though still good to have. I don't really fully disagree with the sentiments that you've put forth, but for christs sake, be sure you know what you are talking about; despite all it's faults, Oregon DHS has made it very easy to access info on the paramedic requirements.
http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/educate.shtml#paramedic

schulz- I thought to gain a provo cert you had to have your current Oregon medical director vouch for you; in essence be hired on somewhere. Is that not the case for you, or are you working in Oregon?

 

[VentMedic]

Bashing newbies on internet forums will only alienate them.

YOU are not a newbie. You have stated on the forums that you are almost 35 y/o. If you had any interest in medicine with your "vast" experience you probably wouldn't be so confused now. Make some decisions or just stay on the engine and stop all the education bashing. To tell the newbies that education is of not important and a union card is all they need will just do them an injustice when EMS does move on to become a profession. Also, not everyone wants to be a FF. Some Paramedics do want to be medical professionals and take the patient care aspect of the job seriously.

Anyway, instead of constantly pointing out tech cert medics' perceived inferiorities ad nauseum, persuade them instead of the career development benefit, expanded knowledge base, and relative ease of upgrading their tech cert to a degree.

This was my post from the other forum on 12/02/09. Any of the information sound familiar?

With so many decent colleges in VA with reasonable tuition, especially at the community college level, why would you want to go with a questionable mail order program? If you are going to do online, just about every college offers that method of teaching for some classes. Using one locally can give you greater access to their resources including the labs. You can probably transfer your Paramedic cert much easier within state to a good A.A.S program. That may leave you only about 24 credits to finish that degree. I still don't see how you 46young, who have preached money matters, could get suckered into such quick fix degrees to suck your money out of your bank accounts with numerous extra fees and out of state tuition as well as classes that may not even pertain to your own state's requirements. Instead of look for some elaborate scheme, just go to your local community college. It is only a cert to Associates degree. They can also do personal counseling for the correct classes for your goals and get you financial aid advice if you need it. At this point I don't think you have a clue what you want to do so it is best you get advice that can be applied broadly. Also, if you choose an out of state program, those classes may have difficulty coming into your state especially if they are from a private school. And remember, some science and math classes have a time limit for transfer which is 5 or 7 years depending on the state.

Also, if you want to obtain another health degree in the future, you need to take real college level A&P and pharmacology. Trying to CLEP out of these classes based on the overview sections of these courses offered in a Paramedic cert program is not a good idea. Picking up a book entitled CLEPPING Pharmacology for Dummies is also not a good idea as the title will give you some clue as to why. If you do not have a thorough understanding of these subjects, while you might pass the course, you may just skim by which does the patients who will be in your care a disservice. Inhospital and critical care (including CCT) pharmacology requires an indepth understanding and not just a gloss over. Med-surg pharmacology alone can be very expansive with numerous meds and the provider must understand the meds well enough to teach as well as just do the skill of setting the med at bedside after matching the names of the medications from the orders.

And this was your reply:

46Young, on 03 December 2009 - 08:20 AM, said:
Check my math if you like. Someone with a tech cert could save 10 grand annually for 10 consecutive years, put it in a balanced ETF (or retail fund) gaining 7-8% on average, and then just leave it there for the remaining 30 years of their career. They'll have over 2 million at retirement. Imagine if they continue to contribute into deferred comp. Or if their contributions were to increase with salary increases. The MD, who doesn't really start earning until they're in their 30's should be able to do the same thing, but it will take a much larger contribution to accomplish that. College is important, but it's not the only path to prosperity. All I was saying is that one should have opportunity cost in mind when they choose their course of action.

http://www.emtcity.com/index.php/topic/17040-paramedic-cert-to-paramedic-degree/page__st__10

I find it hard to take someone serious who tries so hard to talk people out of a lifetime investment of just two or four years of education because it might take away a year or two of earning potential. You just want to argue for the sake of getting others to agree that a tech cert is all the Paramedic should ever be. And then you did state this:

I don't see a significant movement to degrees in the near future otherwise, based on the type of people that EMS currently attracts.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

A&P 1 is a prerequisite for the paramedic program, or at least it was for me. I am sure the level of education and training vary greatly from state to state. Making all Paramedics take a couple English classes is not going to improve patient care.

If your unhappy with Paramedics in some areas I think you need to attack the paramedic programs themselves, before trying to tackle this whole degree thing. If these patch mills are pumping out crappy medics and they are some how passing the NREMT, DOT curriculum needs to be changed, programs need to be longer, and NREMT needs to raise the bench mark. Taking the same crappy incompetent Paramedic and training him at the jr college level in English comp1 and basic Algebra is not the answer.

I support Paramedics getting at least an associates, and I would like to see it as mandatory one day in the U.S. But thats not the complete answer. Also, the way Oregon did it is terrible and the degree requirements are way to much compared to most other states AAS degrees.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/educate.shtml#paramedic

schulz- I thought to gain a provo cert you had to have your current Oregon medical director vouch for you; in essence be hired on somewhere. Is that not the case for you, or are you working in Oregon?

I work 1 day a week doing event stand by in Portland. I still get unemployment, I make so little they do not even take it out of my check normally! Yes you do need a letter from your medical director and an agency and $250ish dollars! (with the reciprocity)

 

[VentMedic]

What a sad statement for you to make about something which you are uninformed and unqualified to speak about (Oregon's Paramedic degree and Oregon EMS in general). And believe me, there are plenty of unprofessional yet professionally employed paramedics in Oregon, degree and all. Add in the bs the state is pulling now with the system...yeah...hush up until you are better informed.

Oregon does not require a pharmacology course to be certified as a paramedic. Out of the 93 credits required (100+ when you figure in prereqs for some of the classes) the majority do have some bearing on EMS or medical care, but not all. There's 19 I'd say that fall into the category of being "filler" for the degree, though still good to have. I don't really fully disagree with the sentiments that you've put forth, but for christs sake, be sure you know what you are talking about; despite all it's faults, Oregon DHS has made it very easy to access info on the paramedic requirements.
http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/educate.shtml#paramedic

schulz- I thought to gain a provo cert you had to have your current Oregon medical director vouch for you; in essence be hired on somewhere. Is that not the case for you, or are you working in Oregon?

And now another education basher chimes....

So sad if OR and the degree programs have now had to lower their standards to help out those who whine about all those hard classes. Maybe if they didn't lower their degree requirements some of the "unprofessional" Paramedics could get flushed out of the system.

Have you noticed that the old timers on this forum such as Rid and I had our EMS degrees from over 30 years ago? Do you know how many degree programs there actually are in this country?

It is also very sad that you do not understand the purpose of a college education is to make one a well rounded professional who can read, write and communicate at a higher level. So yes, some of those non-medical electives are necessary.

Anybody have any doubts now why EMS is still limping along with the same training as in 1969?

 

[VentMedic]

A&P 1 is a prerequisite for the paramedic program, or at least it was for me. I am sure the level of education and training vary greatly from state to state. Making all Paramedics take a couple English classes is not going to improve patient care.

If your unhappy with Paramedics in some areas I think you need to attack the paramedic programs themselves, before trying to tackle this whole degree thing. If these patch mills are pumping out crappy medics and they are some how passing the NREMT, DOT curriculum needs to be changed, programs need to be longer, and NREMT needs to raise the bench mark. Taking the same crappy incompetent Paramedic and training him at the jr college level in English comp1 and basic Algebra is not the answer.

I support Paramedics getting at least an associates, and I would like to see it as mandatory one day in the U.S. But thats not the complete answer. Also, the way Oregon did it is terrible and the degree requirements are way to much compared to most other states AAS degrees.

You don't think reading, writing and math are important? Please stay away from the medications. Calculating medications IS basic Algebra.

In case you haven't heard, the NREMT is attacking the medic mills by requiring them to become accredited. And here's some really big new for you, the NREMT is changing the levels. Stay current with EMS and read the bulletins and journals.

Here's a thread with some links for you to catch up on the world of EMS and the changes that are coming. Be sure to read the link to the NREMT newsletter at the top.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15726

Some of us old timers have been doing more than just taking the easy way out and ignoring the issues out there.

 

[triemal04]

And now another education basher chimes....

So sad if OR and the degree programs have now had to lower their standards to help out those who whine about all those hard classes. Maybe if they didn't lower their degree requirements some of the "unprofessional" Paramedics could get flushed out of the system.

Have you noticed that the old timers on this forum such as Rid and I had our EMS degrees from over 30 years ago? Do you know how many degree programs there actually are in this country?

It is also very sad that you do not understand the purpose of a college education is to make one a well rounded professional who can read, write and communicate at a higher level. So yes, some of those non-medical electives are necessary.

Anybody have any doubts now why EMS is still limping along with the same training as in 1969?

venty, if you can't keep up with the class, don't bother commenting, m'kay? After reading any of my posts anti-education is about the last thing I am, and your saying so is just...well...dumb. Surprise surprise there...

Actually, the standards for the degree have not changed at all; they are the same as they were 10 years ago when it was implemented; remember, you are not qualified to discuss this specific topic, and it shows. But, unfortunately, even jackballs (though probably less than elsewhere, I have no doubt about that) can gain a degree; just look at many colleges nationwide.

There are lot's of degree programs nationally; hopefully one day (soon) a 3-yr associates will be the minimum required to work as a paramedic. But talking about what happened 30yrs ago and what's happening now is rather disingenuous; it's great that at one point the profession was moving forward, and still is to a certain extent (albeit slowly) but the current discussion is on CURRENT practices, not "the good old days."

Again, keep up with the class, you'll notice that I mentioned I actually agree with most of your sentiments, just still want you to be ACCURATE when you discuss this topic. Probably to much to ask, I know... And again, you'll notice that, though they may be "filler" for a degree, I've already said those classes are still a good thing to have. Man...can you actually reply to what has been said and not what you WANT to have been said?

Schulz- Out of curiosity, what is it about Oregon's degree you don't like?

 

[VentMedic]

venty, if you can't keep up with the class, don't bother commenting, m'kay? After reading any of my posts anti-education is about the last thing I am, and your saying so is just...well...dumb. Surprise surprise there...

Actually, the standards for the degree have not changed at all; they are the same as they were 10 years ago when it was implemented; remember, you are not qualified to discuss this specific topic, and it shows. But, unfortunately, even jackballs (though probably less than elsewhere, I have no doubt about that) can gain a degree; just look at many colleges nationwide.

You were still in elementary school 10 years ago.

You've also changed your opinions to go against whatever I am for. Since I have been consistently pro-education, you have argued against it just so you wouldn't have to agree. Now doesn't that sound a little like elementary school still for you?

 

[ExpatMedic0]

So you think taking the medic mill guy, giving him Algebra (which he all ready has to know to be certified according to you since its required for calculating medication)
Is the answer?

Are you such a smart *** with your bedside manner or does that just come with old age?

You don't think reading, writing and math are important? Please stay away from the medications. Calculating medications IS basic Algebra.

In case you haven't heard, the NREMT is attacking the medic mills by requiring them to become accredited. And here's some really big new for you, the NREMT is changing the levels. Stay current with EMS and read the bulletins and journals.

Here's a thread with some links for you to catch up on the world of EMS and the changes that are coming. Be sure to read the link to the NREMT newsletter at the top.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15726

Some of us old timers have been doing more than just taking the easy way out and ignoring the issues out there.

 

[VentMedic]

So you think taking the medic mill guy, giving him Algebra (which he all ready has to know to be certified according to you since its required for calculating medication)
Is the answer?

You are assuming too much. The problem is some of those from the medic mills can barely add 2 + 2 to come up with 4. They are taught to pass a test. And heaven forbid if they are asked to take a medicated drip on an IFT transport. If the pump starts beeping they just shut it off rather than learn how to deal with it.

Here's another news flash for you. In some places EVERY FF is required to become a Paramedic before hire or within a year of hire. This is regardless of any medical interest or lack of. After the Fire Academy that may leave them all of 6 months and many medic mills do cater to the FDs. Thus, if someone who has absolutely NO interest in being a Paramedic can pass a medic mill program and still pass a test based on a 10th grade textbook. Now isn't that something for EMS to be proud of?

Are you such a smart *** with your bedside manner or does that just come with old age?

Pull up your big girl panties and quit whining about your education.

You are not my patient and this is not the bedside. I guess educated people and experience mean little to you. You don't have to live in OR if you don't want to go to college. Maybe 46Young or triemal04 can get you into one of their tech schools.

Did you even bother to look at the links to see what I'm being such a smartarse about? It is all there in black and white for you to read about the changes coming to the NREMT and EMS.

 

[rhan101277]

My instructor has a B.S. degree and its also a CCEMT-P. He has been a paramedic in some sort of capacity for 20 years. He is trying to get the education laws changed around here, there is a definite difference in his class. There are also adjunct instructors who teach and have lots of experience. We had to do a term paper on professionalism in EMS and what it means. Maybe they need to add Chemistry I and II into the curriculum.

I also think volunteers hurt the profession. Nothing against it, but you don't see RN's going to hospitals to volunteer their time to do patient care. As soon as everyone has the same curriculum nationally with the same pre-reqs and classes then maybe it gets better.

 

[Scott33]

The problem is some of those from the medic mills can barely add 2 + 2 to come up with 4. They are taught to pass a test.

Perhaps.

But how much of the education at nursing school do you think is merely geared towards passing the NCLEX? I would reckon about half. I was once told by one of my Professors, that you don't really start to become an RN until about 3 years post boards. Something which I don't entirely disagree with it.

I am ALL for more education in EMS, ideally mandatory at the BSc level. But like nursing and all those other allied professions, it should be balanced with hands on exposure in the field.

In other words, one could equally argue that a paramedic who holds an EMS-realted degree, but who only handles about 50 calls a year in a medical control-heavy system, should need to have additional training (in this case exposure) to be allowed to have continued certification or licensure.

If only the problems in EMS were as simple as mandating degree-level education...

 

[VentMedic]

I am ALL for more education in EMS, ideally mandatory at the BSc level. But like nursing and all those other allied professions, it should be balanced with hands on exposure in the field.

In other words, one could equally argue that a paramedic who holds an EMS-realted degree, but who only handles about 50 calls a year in a medical control-heavy system, should need to have additional training (in this case exposure) to be allowed to have continued certification or licensure.

If only the problems in EMS were as simple as mandating degree-level education...

If the Paramedic only has 40 ALS patient contacts during clinicals and with some states allowing for a broad interpretation of "ALS" contacts, that could be just about anything. Also, for some situations with the FDs and the medic mills, Florida has to keep reminding them that ALS engine sleepovers do not count for what is too few hours now in the programs for clinicals. It has to be an ambulance that transports. If these new Paramedics go to work on an ALS engine or an area with a very low call volume, they are not going to be very effective. We end up with more Washington DCs, Collier Counties and Los Angeles.

Other professions, nursing and RT, get well over 1000 hours of clinicals in their 2 year programs. This is also with considerable patient contact. They also know that the initial education is just the beginning and from there they must get more experience and education. They also have better mentoring systems in place for their new grads.