Legal question, I was dispatched to transport 2 PT's!!!!!

[ffemt8978]

Care to show me where it says it's legal?????????????????no no it's not check out the articles about greybor ambulance and Murfreesboro ambulance and you will see it clearly states they transported multiple patients at once.....Hello!!!!!!MEDICARE FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's only Medicare Fraud it you charge Medicare mileage for both patients. If you only charge mileage on one patient, it's not fraud.

Just because you can't find a source that say's it's illegal doesn't mean it is illegal. The way the laws are supposed to work in this country is that something is presumed legal unless there is a law prohibiting it, not the other way around.

 

[EMS49393]

Not sure how they do things in TexAss or Michigan but in California it's illegal unless it's 911!!!!!!!!!!!

Your argument is rendered invalid since you can provide no reference source.

I've been working on an ambulance for close to two decades and have transported 2 or more patients several times, whether I was working 911 or IFT. I have also done billing, dispatch, and I am very versed in medicare law. Our moderator is correct, you are incorrect. You can not bill mileage for two patients, however you can transport and bill for the transport for multiple patients, IFT or 911.

Isn't there a bridge somewhere missing it's troll?<_<

 

[Shishkabob]

Care to show me where it says it's legal?????????????????no no it's not check out the articles about greybor ambulance and Murfreesboro ambulance and you will see it clearly states they transported multiple patients at once.....Hello!!!!!!MEDICARE FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I looked up your "greybor ambulance" and in the very first article I read it stated exactly what we have been saying:

You can transport multiple patients... you cannot bill them as individual runs. Especially when you fraud the paperwork stating someone is bed-ridden when they aren't.

Same with your "Murfreesboro ambulance"... again, billing for patients as requiring an ambulance when they did not.



Not once did I see mention of "not being allowed to carry multiple patients".

 

[Journey]

Just quote the CMS source.

https://www.cms.gov/manuals/Downloads/bp102c10.pdf

10.3.10 – Multiple Patient Ambulance Transport

 

[ambman1989]

O.?k?

 

[JPINFV]

Medicare is a federal program, not a state program. Therefore, if it's medicare fraud, then it would be the same nationwide, not just in specific states.

Additionally,

"At the heart of the indictment are accusations that the Medlocks provided emergency transportation for people who did not need an ambulance, and sometimes transported multiple patients but billed the government as though each patient had received a separate trip."
- http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/stories/2010/01/11/daily15.html

Just in case anyone missed it.

"sometimes transported multiple patients but billed the government as though each patient had received a separate trip."

Is it fraud to transport and bill IFT transports where 2 patients are transported at the same time? No. Is it fraud to bill it like each received their own transport? Yes.

 

[ffemt8978]

From the link Journey posted,

10.3.10 - Multiple Patient Ambulance Transport
(Rev. 103; Issued: 02-20-09; Effective Date: 01-05-09; Implementation Date: 03-20-09)
Effective April 1, 2002, if two patients are transported to the same destination simultaneously, for each Medicare beneficiary, Medicare will allow 75 percent of the payment allowance for the base rate applicable to the level of care furnished to that beneficiary plus 50 percent of the total mileage payment allowance for the entire trip.

If three or more patients are transported to the same destination simultaneously, then the payment allowance for the Medicare beneficiary (or each of them) is equal to 60 percent of the base rate applicable to the level of care furnished to the beneficiary. However, a single payment allowance for mileage will be prorated by the number of patients onboard.

This policy applies to both ground and air transports.

So it is legal to transport more than one patient on an IFT, as long as you bill correctly for it.

 

[rwik123]

Care to show me where it says it's legal?????????????????no no it's not check out the articles about greybor ambulance and Murfreesboro ambulance and you will see it clearly states they transported multiple patients at once.....Hello!!!!!!MEDICARE FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hey bro.. how bout you introduce yourself before joining and running your mouth without civility on every thread you've posted on. Seriously, stop being a troll on this thread and the LA-County/Gerber thread

 

[looker]

ambman1989 i really do not know where you're getting your info from, however as been posted before you joined this forum and after, transporting more then one patient at a time is permitted. It rarely happens but it is totally legal.

 

[EMSLaw]

Care to show me where it says it's legal?????????????????no no it's not check out the articles about greybor ambulance and Murfreesboro ambulance and you will see it clearly states they transported multiple patients at once.....Hello!!!!!!MEDICARE FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, using multiple exclamation points just makes your point so much stronger. I'm totally convinced.

Lawyers have a saying - "If the law is against you, argue the facts; if the facts are against you, argue the law; if the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table." You, my friend, are pounding on the table.

Of course it's illegal to bill medicare for services not actually provided. However, it is not medicare fraud if you TELL THEM you transported two patients at once, and accept the 75% reimbursement for each patient (which, if you think about it, isn't a bad deal.)

There are public policy reasons why multiple patient transports - even IFT - are not prohibited. Take, for example, this hypothetical... There are about 18 inches of snow on the ground where I live right now. Two patients are going from the same hospital to the same SNF. Why should the ambulance company risk two trips in the current conditions when one will do? Or, instead of inclement weather, place the scenario in small-town USA, where there are only, say, two ambulances available for all purposes. Medicare can't envision every situation, so they don't try to. They just tell you what is required for you to get paid.

 

[Lone Star]

I've been in the middle of an IFT run, come upon an accident, decided that patient needed immediate transport, so we transported. No one has said anything to me yet, so I'm not worried. B)

If you're 'in the middle of an IFT run', why are you stopping at another call in the first place?

How was this handled?

Did you have a patient on board?

Did one crew member evaluate/treat the MVA patient?

Did both partners leave the IFT patient unattended?

Getting redirected while enroute to the IFT is one thing, to stop and work an MVA AFTER you've made patient contact with the IFT patient is a whole different ball of wax.

In Michigan, if you're responding to a 'cold call' (IFT, or priority 3 call), you cannot pass an accident scene if you have no patient on board. If you've already made patient contact and are transporting, you don't have to stop for the MVA, as most crews are only two people, and to effectively evaluate treat and load the MVA patient (if they have significant MOI) with only one person. The other person would HAVE to stay with the patient, or risk facing an abandonment beef with the State licensing board.

 

[Lone Star]

Not sure how they do things in Texas or Michigan but in California it's illegal unless it's 911!!!!!!!!!!!

What I'm finding amusing is that with all the members chiming in from California, not one has backed your play on this one. I'm thinking that there has GOT to be at least ONE other California EMT that would corroborate what you're saying IF in fact, it were illegal in California. Unfortunately, from what I and a host of others are seeing is that our California members are actually DISPROVING your statement.

I suggest that you go back and take a Med/Legal refresher course before you try to spout off about EMS law. If you do that and STILL decide to keep up this silly nonsense....provide sources to prove your point!

 

[HotelCo]

If you're 'in the middle of an IFT run', why are you stopping at another call in the first place?

How was this handled?

Did you have a patient on board?

Did one crew member evaluate/treat the MVA patient?

Did both partners leave the IFT patient unattended?

Getting redirected while enroute to the IFT is one thing, to stop and work an MVA AFTER you've made patient contact with the IFT patient is a whole different ball of wax.

In Michigan, if you're responding to a 'cold call' (IFT, or priority 3 call), you cannot pass an accident scene if you have no patient on board. If you've already made patient contact and are transporting, you don't have to stop for the MVA, as most crews are only two people, and to effectively evaluate treat and load the MVA patient (if they have significant MOI) with only one person. The other person would HAVE to stay with the patient, or risk facing an abandonment beef with the State licensing board.

Pt was a stable transfer going back to the nursing home. Why wouldn't I stop? My partner was in back with a stable patient.
I got out of the truck, grabbed the jump bag and went to assess the patient. A PSO pulled up, and we C-collared and backboarded the patient. Placed them on the bench seat, and transported. My partner took care of the MVC, and I drove.

 

[HotelCo]

In Michigan, if you're responding to a 'cold call' (IFT, or priority 3 call), you cannot pass an accident scene if you have no patient on board.

Cite please.

 

[supergirl534]

i understand

i compelety understand why you might be uncomfertable not taking to pt's in the ambulance at once but i have to agree with everyone else. there is othing wrong with taking two pts to the hospital. i also work for a private company and understand were when you have a problem with something and they dont help dont get dicouraged you did what you thought what you did was best but the only other thing i have to say is if you made the pt unstable you should have never waited for the other ambulance to show up technically now you are delaying transport. keep all the little things in mind

 

[Paratographer]

Just help people!

I work in a rural setting and have had up to four PTs in my ambulance at once. Two critical, two stable. That's four IVs, vitals every 5 min X2 and vitals every 10-15 on the other two. Throw in an intubation, vent set up and treatment of secondary injuries and you will be amazed how quickly the 40 minute code 3 transport time goes. I had to lean through to the front to get the vitals on the fourth PT.
If I'm presented with a chance to help someone, I jump at it. Why didn't you?

 

[Hockey]

I work in a rural setting and have had up to four PTs in my ambulance at once. Two critical, two stable. That's four IVs, vitals every 5 min X2 and vitals every 10-15 on the other two. Throw in an intubation, vent set up and treatment of secondary injuries and you will be amazed how quickly the 40 minute code 3 transport time goes. I had to lean through to the front to get the vitals on the fourth PT.
If I'm presented with a chance to help someone, I jump at it. Why didn't you?

Wow. Are you like a Paragod? Thats flippin impressive

 

[Madmedic780]

On a 911 call to a nursing home for a hard ground level fall (stable with suspected strain, no deformations), I had the manager try to convince me to take another one of their client's that had a nasty bed sore at the same time. Considering they were both BLS pts I had no problem with it but to CMA I called my boss who said no.

But being in a rural area I have taken families in before in non-MCI situations.