How many of you carry a traumma bag in your POV

[Fish]

That is a really extremist view and sounds like a cop out to me.

It's very said that your Aunt lost her life aiding someone in need along a roadway, but it's unfair to affect the rest of humanity because of one lost life. Instead of having her life be lost in vein why not use it as an example of unselfishness and use it to raise an awareness within yourself. Use it to be more cautious and perform a better scene assessment to protect yourself in such situations.

I don't know what background your Aunt had but as a Paramedic, EMT, or Firefighter, we have a greater sense to anticipate and assess a scene which can mitigate the tragedy that happened to your family. Your right in that a risk is always present, but I thought it was innate in us to strive to save a life and go the extra mile that an ordinary citizen won't. What would your Aunt want you to do now? Make the effort or be selfish?

Your so worried about putting your family through another tragedy yet your a Paramedic and inherent the risk of that job? IFT or not it carries some risks.

You give one bad example.. but what about the 100 good examples for that one? I think your letting emotion overrule your head.

And it's not foolish to put yourself out there to help in another's time of need. That is called being human and having integrity. Only a fool will turn their back and walk away from a person in need of help.

Well Said

 

[Sasha]

Oh yes. Stopping and the holocaust. Totally the same thing.

Like i said. Its my choice not to stop, and i wont stop. I will call 911 and continue on my merry little way. Youre not gonna sway me no.matter how much you try to dehumanize me.

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[Altered Mental Status]

I agree that we have a moral duty to act, even when we don't have an ethical one.

However, I'm really green. My Program Director for the EMP program here in Mobile has been doing this for years and even though sometimes I don't agree with him and I think he can be a jerk sometimes, I have tonnes of respect for him, his methods, his professionalism, his ethics and his obvious concern for his PTs.

He has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't put any EMT markings on his vehicle and only keeps a basic first aid kit, a bulb syringe and a pair of gloves in the ashtray. He cares about infants and children. When he's off-duty, we adults can fend for ourselves. I tend to believe that he's a smart man and has been around the block long enough to know the answer to this dilemma.

There's a valid concern with protecting one's own family from consequences related to your profession. This job, while it is our livelihood (and an honorable, rewarding one at that), is our job. It's what we do because we can't be independently wealthy philanthropists all day long. We have a responsibility to protect loved ones from legal malfeasance.

Going "off the grid" to help someone means you're working without Medical Direction. That means it's YOUR ***, not the Doc's and not a hospital with a ginormous tort department and standard operating procedures for handling such. Furthermore, there's a very good reason for Medical Control. We can't know everything.

It's about balance. I would definitely stop but ONLY if I saw my fellow man in immediate, emergent need with no other more-reasonable options. I also agree with the sentiment that we should offer BLS (CPR, ABCs and C-Spine. No assisting with meds unless it's glucose) because without a truck & stretcher (for positioning), AED, SpO2, Hi-flow O2, and (the most important piece of safety equipment) a PARTNER, I have no way to provide and ensure complete and proper prehospital care. What happens if one of my interventions was wrong? What happens if the PT worsens and I really should have had an extra set of hands before I started? These things have a way of turning into a :censored::censored::censored::censored:-sandwich real quick without help, proper Dx tools, accountability and documentation.

It is part of our protocols to ensure:
-Personal safety (Scene safety and standard precautions)
-Competently-executed PT assessment using the proper tools for the job
-the RIGHT interventions
-Proper documentation including witnesses
-That we don't assume care for a PT we can not execute properly or complete--that we not abandon or transfer care improperly.

We'd be doing our PT and our livelihood a disservice without good judgment and balance.

 

[Sasha]

Scene safe. Bsi!

Apparently some of you forgot one of the most fundamental teachings in emt and p school

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[the_negro_puppy]

I carry nothing and would only stop to help in extreme situations I.E cardiac arrest. I would be very hesitant to stop at the scene of an MVA, especially if there are other there already.

 

[adamjh3]

There is a very definite difference between little Johnny fell right next to you and skinned his knee and an MVA. I think those of you who seem to be having this knee jerk reaction against those of us who say we wouldn't stop are of the view that we are all heartless souls who would never help anyone ever unless we're getting paid for it.

I've helped people off duty. I'm sure others of my point of view have, too. But I won't deliberately go out of my way looking for people to help or put myself in danger to help someone else, r spend money on equipment specifically helping strangers. I didn't put them in the situation, why should I get them out of it without proper resources backing me up?

 

[Handsome Robb]

It's pretty foolish to put YOUR family through suffering so a stranger might get another chance due to you taking unnecessary risks.

I'm with Sasha on this. Like I said I have stopped before but you better give me a really good reason to and I better be as comfy as a bump is when its on a log.

Like someone else said, I'll be much more willing if it's a child than I am if its an adult.

 

[Altered Mental Status]

I carry nothing and would only stop to help in extreme situations I.E cardiac arrest. I would be very hesitant to stop at the scene of an MVA, especially if there are other there already.

I feel like there's a very high statistical likelihood of blame-shifting and tort malfeasance at a MVC scene.

If you're the first on-scene, you are also not ensuring personal safety from a statistically high cause of EMT injury and death: other curious motorists not paying attention.

If there are other personnel on-scene already, 99% of the time, they have it covered. You stopping just makes you a busybody.

Judgment. Stop if you must but make sure it's both necessary and right.

 

[abckidsmom]

There is a very definite difference between little Johnny fell right next to you and skinned his knee and an MVA. I think those of you who seem to be having this knee jerk reaction against those of us who say we wouldn't stop are of the view that we are all heartless souls who would never help anyone ever unless we're getting paid for it.

I've helped people off duty. I'm sure others of my point of view have, too. But I won't deliberately go out of my way looking for people to help or put myself in danger to help someone else, r spend money on equipment specifically helping strangers. I didn't put them in the situation, why should I get them out of it without proper resources backing me up?

See that's the thing. I see the need for help way more often NOT being a MVA on the highway. There isn't much I can do for that beyond calling for them without risking way more lives than are likely already in danger by parking my van on the side of the road.

ALL. THE. TIME. I see someone who needs a bandaid, their blood pressure checked, an ice pack, a warm wish, a help up, tons of things, and not necessarily an ambulance. Most of the time, these are people I know, and I'm already talking to.

Seriously, I use the bag in my car at least twice a week, and restock it at least once a month. It's just first aid stuff, but I guess it comes with the territory of living in my earthquake-ravaged, tornado- and hurricane-prone hometown that I will need to do a lot of first aid.

 

[usafmedic45]

My family would be disappointed, ashamed, and probably angry if I drove past someone in need and did not help. I know I'd be disappointed and ashamed with myself.

I'm pretty sure you're family would be more pissed about having to have the local medical examiner call asking where they can locate your dental records to identify your corpse.

I agree that we have a moral duty to act, even when we don't have an ethical one.

Our first moral and ethical duty is to protect ourselves and to prevent further harm. That overrides everything else and anyone who tells you different is either :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing stupid, really green, flat out psychotic or some heady mix of the three.

Like i said. Its my choice not to stop, and i wont stop. I will call 911 and continue on my merry little way. Youre not gonna sway me no.matter how much you try to dehumanize me.

I'm so proud of you Sasha.

There's a few million Jews alive today because brave men and women had the courage to face Death and say "no, I will not yield, I will stand against this." That's just one example.

As both a Jew and the descendant of a perpetrator (yeah, let's not go there), don't make my whip out a particular circumcised part of my anatomy and start slapping some sense into over the number of logical and historical fallacies inherent in that argument.

For starters, the reason there are several million Jews left in the world is mostly because- big :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing shock- not all of them lived in the occupied territories. New York, Chicago, England to name a few all had huge Jewish populations and not to mention there were large numbers of people who heard what Hitler and his cronies were saying and got the hell out of town before things got worse.

Yes, there were a lot of brave folks who stuck their necks out for Jews and their actions should not be forgotten but I take great personal and professional offense at the suggestion that we should be expected to lay down our lives without question just because some rank and file newbie with his head so far up his own rectum that he can't even be troubled to fact check his argument for soundness says so.

If you feel the need to be a hero, go ahead and try to be one. After the parade and the folding of the flag on your casket, the only people who will remember as anything but a bad example of egregious stupidity will be your family whom you think will be so proud of your actions but ask them how they would feel having to face an empty seat at holidays or seeing your kids growing up without their dad? I'm pretty sure that sort of crushing and overwhelming sorrow will trump the blessing that is knowing their son died a "hero". Even if you don't get the glorious line of duty (while not on duty apparently) death you seem to be so hell bent on achieving for yourself, you will succeed in alienating your colleagues and slowly bleed your career dry.

And it's not foolish to put yourself out there to help in another's time of need. That is called being human and having integrity. Only a fool will turn their back and walk away from a person in need of help.

Risk a little to save a lot, risk a little to save a little, risk nothing to save that which is already lost.

Part of what makes us human is that we will risk everything to help a total stranger.

No, what makes us human is our prefrontal cortex which I am beginning to doubt is fully functional in your case.

Even if I were injured or killed I feel that it its appropriate for me to help

Make sure your organ donor card is signed and ready to go. Also you might want to go ahead and get fingerprinted, keep that and have annually updated copy of your dental records in a big manila envelope to help make the local authorities job of identifying your charred and/or battered carcass a little easier.

I would have a hard time dealing with a preventable death that I could have helped prevent had I acted...ie the recent Utah motorcyclist.

Wow....that's pretty damn egotistical of you given that most trauma deaths are not preventable even with ideal surgical care immediately.

You give one bad example.. but what about the 100 good examples for that one? I think your letting emotion overrule your head.

How about you actually get some real data and show that bystander first aid is actually livesaving in more cases than people are killed or injured assisting every year? There are so few things that are truly immediately lethal that simply alerting the authorities and carrying on your way is not likely to do anymore harm and is far less risky than stopping and getting involved directly.

but I thought it was innate in us to strive to save a life and go the extra mile that an ordinary citizen won't

Nah, that's just BS from TV and movies.

What would your Aunt want you to do now? Make the effort or be selfish?

Nothing like a pointless plea to emotion.....we'll never know what she would do know because she's dead as a result of her decision at the time.

but it's unfair to affect the rest of humanity because of one lost life.

Not to sound like a rehashing of our last debate but: how many dead people does it take to make a point? A dead or injured bystander- off duty provider or not- isn't worth the small benefit of comforting someone or having them stand and look at (or perhaps flog) a corpse.

Instead of having her life be lost in vein why not use it as an example of unselfishness and use it to raise an awareness within yourself.

"Selflessness" is the word you were looking for. She didn't die in vain if someone learns not to make the same mistake she did.

I don't think that that stops when I clock out.

Give it a few years, that will change. If not, there's always Thorazine.

 

[usalsfyre]

See that's the thing. I see the need for help way more often NOT being a MVA on the highway. There isn't much I can do for that beyond calling for them without risking way more lives than are likely already in danger by parking my van on the side of the road.

ALL. THE. TIME. I see someone who needs a bandaid, their blood pressure checked, an ice pack, a warm wish, a help up, tons of things, and not necessarily an ambulance. Most of the time, these are people I know, and I'm already talking to.

Seriously, I use the bag in my car at least twice a week, and restock it at least once a month. It's just first aid stuff, but I guess it comes with the territory of living in my earthquake-ravaged, tornado- and hurricane-prone hometown that I will need to do a lot of first aid.

This is incredibly true. But it's not the kind of situation your typical wacker is likely to be a part of, because it's not glamorous.

 

[Handsome Robb]

by parking my van on the side of the road.

Just rember the fend-off position!! Yea, I paid attention during the ops lecture

I think those of you who seem to be having this knee jerk reaction against those of us who say we wouldn't stop are of the view that we are all heartless souls who would never help anyone ever unless we're getting paid for it.

I like your style.

 

[usafmedic45]

This is incredibly true. But it's not the kind of situation your typical wacker is likely to be a part of, because it's not glamorous.

Bingo. Those are the ones folks like Rocketmedic would never even notice because there's so little chance of a banner headline and front page picture of him charging away from an exploding car clutching a pair of Siamese twins barely clinging to life and only then as a result of his ability to hold a jaw thrust on both of them simultaneously while sprinting. :rofl:

 

[Altered Mental Status]

See that's the thing. I see the need for help way more often NOT being a MVA on the highway. There isn't much I can do for that beyond calling for them without risking way more lives than are likely already in danger by parking my van on the side of the road.

ALL. THE. TIME. I see someone who needs a bandaid, their blood pressure checked, an ice pack, a warm wish, a help up, tons of things, and not necessarily an ambulance. Most of the time, these are people I know, and I'm already talking to.

Seriously, I use the bag in my car at least twice a week, and restock it at least once a month. It's just first aid stuff, but I guess it comes with the territory of living in my earthquake-ravaged, tornado- and hurricane-prone hometown that I will need to do a lot of first aid.

That's wonderful...and it's exemplary of good judgment. I have a sphyg, cheap steth, pen light, kerlex, sam splint, OTC oral glucose, BG meter with disposable lancets, chewable aspirin, bulb syringe, bite stick, trauma shears, burn blanket, bottle of saline for flushing out wounds/eyes, tweezers, CPR mask, liquid children's preparation dyphenhydramine, box of 8 nutrile gloves, size M and alllll the typical mommy first aid goodies. I will probably add OPAs and NPAs when I get around to it.

If my kid or someone I love goes down, I will be angry with myself if I know what interventions need be made and I don't have the tools.

It is MY CHOICE whether to risk stopping and using them on a stranger and I like it that way. I trust myself and my integrity and my own good heart.

 

[usafmedic45]

Just rember the fend-off position!!

Yeah....van full of kids. Great idea. "Well officer, I figured it was better them than me! SCENE SAFETY!"

 

[usalsfyre]

As an aside...the hero mentality has caused way too many funerals in both the career fields I've been in. I'm incredibly sick of putting good people in the ground because they think they have to live up to a pie in the sky ideal.

 

[Sasha]

I'm pretty sure you're family would be more pissed about having to have the local medical examiner call asking where they can locate your dental records to identify your corpse.



Our first moral and ethical duty is to protect ourselves and to prevent further harm. That overrides everything else and anyone who tells you different is either :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing stupid, really green, flat out psychotic or some heady mix of the three.



I'm so proud of you Sasha.



As both a Jew and the descendant of a perpetrator (yeah, let's not go there), don't make my whip out a particular circumcised part of my anatomy and start slapping some sense into over the number of logical and historical fallacies inherent in that argument.

For starters, the reason there are several million Jews left in the world is mostly because- big :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing shock- not all of them lived in the occupied territories. New York, Chicago, England to name a few all had huge Jewish populations and not to mention there were large numbers of people who heard what Hitler and his cronies were saying and got the hell out of town before things got worse.

Yes, there were a lot of brave folks who stuck their necks out for Jews and their actions should not be forgotten but I take great personal and professional offense at the suggestion that we should be expected to lay down our lives without question just because some rank and file newbie with his head so far up his own rectum that he can't even be troubled to fact check his argument for soundness says so.

If you feel the need to be a hero, go ahead and try to be one. After the parade and the folding of the flag on your casket, the only people who will remember as anything but a bad example of egregious stupidity will be your family whom you think will be so proud of your actions but ask them how they would feel having to face an empty seat at holidays or seeing your kids growing up without their dad? I'm pretty sure that sort of crushing and overwhelming sorrow will trump the blessing that is knowing their son died a "hero". Even if you don't get the glorious line of duty (while not on duty apparently) death you seem to be so hell bent on achieving for yourself, you will succeed in alienating your colleagues and slowly bleed your career dry.



Risk a little to save a lot, risk a little to save a little, risk nothing to save that which is already lost.



No, what makes us human is our prefrontal cortex which I am beginning to doubt is fully functional in your case.



Make sure your organ donor card is signed and ready to go. Also you might want to go ahead and get fingerprinted, keep that and have annually updated copy of your dental records in a big manila envelope to help make the local authorities job of identifying your charred and/or battered carcass a little easier.



Wow....that's pretty damn egotistical of you given that most trauma deaths are not preventable even with ideal surgical care immediately.



How about you actually get some real data and show that bystander first aid is actually livesaving in more cases than people are killed or injured assisting every year? There are so few things that are truly immediately lethal that simply alerting the authorities and carrying on your way is not likely to do anymore harm and is far less risky than stopping and getting involved directly.



Nah, that's just BS from TV and movies.


Nothing like a pointless plea to emotion.....we'll never know what she would do know because she's dead as a result of her decision at the time.



Not to sound like a rehashing of our last debate but: how many dead people does it take to make a point? A dead or injured bystander- off duty provider or not- isn't worth the small benefit of comforting someone or having them stand and look at (or perhaps flog) a corpse.



"Selflessness" is the word you were looking for. She didn't die in vain if someone learns not to make the same mistake she did.



Give it a few years, that will change. If not, there's always Thorazine.

Bravo.

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[abckidsmom]

This is incredibly true. But it's not the kind of situation your typical wacker is likely to be a part of, because it's not glamorous.

I had the most glamorous save of my career as a bystander and the patient as well as the responding crew just blew me off. What a let down.

Get this, Joe Whacker: it's not awesome. Nobody cares about how cool you are. It's just bandaids and doing the next thing.

I think the huge take home from this is that we should do exactly what we feel we should in the situations as they present themselves. I've stopped, I've driven past, I've helped, and I've turned my head. Every situation is different, and requires the judgment of that day, with all the variables considered.

This is not a topic which can be resolved through debate because it just varies.

 

[usafmedic45]

It is MY CHOICE whether to risk stopping and using them on a stranger and I like it that way. I trust myself and my integrity and my own good heart.

That is the right attitude. It is a personal choice. My main gripe with the people I took to task earlier is simply the "Well, if you don't do as I do ethically, you're a horrible human being" attitude.

You need to keep in mind that my decision tree for offering assistance while off duty pretty much consists of:
1-Is the victim a kid or an animal? Yes: Help them if it can be done safely No: Go to question 2
2-Do I know the person? Yes: Go to question 4 No: Go to question 3
3- Am I stuck in the situation/do other bystanders know that I'm medically trained? Yes- Help them if it can be done safely No- Go to question 4
4-Do I like the person? Yes: Help them if it can be done safely No: Do not get involved even if it means standing idly by; thank God for no statuatory requirement to render care

 

[usafmedic45]

Bravo.

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Danke.