Grim scene - bystander/first responder GSW scenario

[PVC]

Where does this "second round" idea come from? I've never heard of this phenomenon. As I understand it, the strategy of the drive-by is to attack hard and fast, then GTFO before the cops arrive. The cars containing the shooters accelerated hard going due south, running through stop signs. Essentially giving no indication that they were planning on making a U-turn that night.

This doesn't make the scene safe. But I think the likelihood of a repeat attack is extremely low.

Some gangs are wicked organized. Depending on where you are at a secondary is possible and a serious threat. The onsite risk assessment is the key. How do you know there is not a second car waiting for a crowd to gather before making their pass?

 

[Doczilla]

Why HIV? Because of the blood? What are you planning on doing, slicing your own palm open and then holding pressure with your bare hand? Hepatitis is more likely anyway.


And it isn't HIV or AIDS. You can only catch HIV, AIDS has to develop after that.

Nope. Full blown AIDS. 60% of the time, works EVERY time.

 

[Tigger]

I've heard stories that sometimes these gang bangers will follow the ambulance to finish up their job, to make sure their target dies. My biggest concern would be scene safety!! ( including BSI, HIV or AIDS is the first thing that comes to mind).

While doing my basic clinicals the hospital I was at went into lockdown after armed gang members were arrested a few blocks from the hospital because they were following the ambulance too closely trying to finish off the patient. Given that they couldn't lock the hospital down forever, when Flight for Life cleared with their patient, they took the (apparently minor) GSW patient back to their base at a Level IV across the county. Bad guys never figured that one out.

In regards to this scenario, there is no way in hell I am involving myself in it beyond calling 911 while driving quickly in the other direction.

 

[STXmedic]

nope. Full blown aids. 60% of the time, works every time.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Where does this "second round" idea come from? I've never heard of this phenomenon. As I understand it, the strategy of the drive-by is to attack hard and fast, then GTFO before the cops arrive. The cars containing the shooters accelerated hard going due south, running through stop signs. Essentially giving no indication that they were planning on making a U-turn that night.

This doesn't make the scene safe. But I think the likelihood of a repeat attack is extremely low.

You're very likely to get yourself shot my friend. There's a reason we get PD escorts and armed guards at the ER when dealing with victims of suspected gang violence. Like others have said, you are messing with their goal, they don't like that.

Turn around and walk away. I wouldn't know that patient number one is dead because I'd never get close enough to find out.

If this happened when I'm on duty and PD cleared the scene first #1 would be left dead on scene and #2 would be cruising towards a Trauma Center pretty quickly.

 

[Doczilla]

The fact that youre even debating the safety of attenting to targets of organized crime for the benefit of providing care that is more likely to make you feel better than make them better is.... Evidence of the need for an attitude readjustment.

Go ahead if you want to. Hold pressure on that scalp wound. Stare at that abdominal wound. It's not going to get them into surgery faster.

you may be dumbfounded that the crowd was unhelpful , but they were most likely dumbfounded that a stranger appeared to conspicuously render aid to someone who a group of armed criminals want dead. They don't care about that person. They don't care that you're an EMT.

You may want to make a difference,you may want to feel like you showed courage in a perilous situation, but all you're going to do is walk away with bloody hands and a target on your back.

 

[PVC]

Where does this "second round" idea come from? I've never heard of this phenomenon. As I understand it, the strategy of the drive-by is to attack hard and fast, then GTFO before the cops arrive. The cars containing the shooters accelerated hard going due south, running through stop signs. Essentially giving no indication that they were planning on making a U-turn that night.

This doesn't make the scene safe. But I think the likelihood of a repeat attack is extremely low.

Are you in a conundrum between safety and helping your homies?

What is your relationship to this subculture that would make you want to take such a risk?

Everyone wants to "do good" in society but getting dead is not good for anyone.

 

[leoemt]

I am trained for this and I would high tail it out of the area. Ever wonder why cops show up in force? This would be a call where, in my area, Several jurisdictions would be responding and EVERYONE on scene would be proned out on the ground and searched then questioned. I wasn't a cop in the "hood" and this would be a rare occurance for us. For cops who are used to this the tactics might be different.

A suspect drove up and opened fire. Obviously those people did something to piss them off. If a group is already forming chances are said group is friends, relatives, homies, etc. of the victims. Chances are VERY high that they would retaliate in a heart beat and you are likely going to be the target.

The dumbest thing you can do is try to help or identify yourself as an EMT or Medic. If the group has any affiliation with the victims, they are likely going to take their anger out on you if you can't save the victims.

Why would you even put yourself in a situation like this when the police are going to respond in numbers with AR-15's? Deathwish?

 

[Remeber343]

1) it's lead not led

2) I don't know how you'd get lead poisoning...

(yes I know bullets have lead but that's insignificant)

I apologize for saying led instead of lead, unfortunately I'm not as perfect as I thought I was :wacko: And as for the lead poisoning, I was being a smart :censored::censored::censored: But, I guess it must have gone over your head, I also apologize for that. Maybe someday you'll learn to just have a chuckle instead of having to correct stuff I have been on many shootings, and they die form lead poisoning, not from bleeding out or other life threats. (That was being sarcastic, they don't actually die from lead poisoning)

 

[rwik123]

I apologize for saying led instead of lead, unfortunately I'm not as perfect as I thought I was :wacko: And as for the lead poisoning, I was being a smart :censored::censored::censored: But, I guess it must have gone over your head, I also apologize for that. Maybe someday you'll learn to just have a chuckle instead of having to correct stuff I have been on many shootings, and they die form lead poisoning, not from bleeding out or other life threats. (That was being sarcastic, they don't actually die from lead poisoning)

Makes sense now hahah...didn't pick up on the humor when I posted at 3 in the morning.

 

[Rostov]

Are you in a conundrum between safety and helping your homies?

What is your relationship to this subculture that would make you want to take such a risk?

I've been watching as this thread fills up with progressively more racist comments, and it is interesting. You ask about my relationship to the "subculture." The culture of violence? My relationship to it is that it happened right in front of me, to other human beings. These people were my neighbors. Yes, I live in the hood. No, these people were not my "homies." They were strangers.

And as far as callously blaming the victims, you might not want to jump to any conclusions. They were innocent bystanders to the real targets. Perhaps I acted as I did because I could have been in their shoes.

Would you want everyone to leave you to bleed to death on the sidewalk while waiting for the police to arrive?

 

[Medic Tim]

I've been watching as this thread fills up with progressively more racist comments, and it is interesting. You ask about my relationship to the "subculture." The culture of violence? My relationship to it is that it happened right in front of me, to other human beings. These people were my neighbors. Yes, I live in the hood. No, these people were not my "homies." They were strangers.

And as far as callously blaming the victims, you might not want to jump to any conclusions. They were innocent bystanders to the real targets. Perhaps I acted as I did because I could have been in their shoes.

Would you want everyone to leave you to bleed to death on the sidewalk while waiting for the police to arrive?

If it was putting them at risk..... Which it is and the fact that they really can't do anything for me.....i would not expect or want help until it was safe.

 

[PVC]

I've been watching as this thread fills up with progressively more racist comments, and it is interesting. You ask about my relationship to the "subculture." The culture of violence? My relationship to it is that it happened right in front of me, to other human beings. These people were my neighbors. Yes, I live in the hood. No, these people were not my "homies." They were strangers.

And as far as callously blaming the victims, you might not want to jump to any conclusions. They were innocent bystanders to the real targets. Perhaps I acted as I did because I could have been in their shoes.

Would you want everyone to leave you to bleed to death on the sidewalk while waiting for the police to arrive?

Subculture: A. the cultural values and behavioral patterns distinctive of a particular group in a society.
B. a group having social, economic, ethnic, or other traits distinctive enough to distinguish it from others within the same culture or society. Dictionary.com

A subculture is any group of people, steel workers, poker players, police, EMS. It is not necessarily ethnicity related.
The slang word homie has been around so long it has been integrated into the American vernacular.

The only guilty in a shootout are the shooters. Everyone else are victims.

If you helped that is your choice. If you don't want people's opinions you can consider not asking.

I would not want anyone to bleed out anywhere, then again I would not want them to be shot in the first place. I most definitely don't want my family to loose one of their providers. I cannot control what other people's actions only mine.

Let's be nice. No need to imply people are something they are not.

 

[GaMedic]

Pt 1. Dead
Pt 2. Needs treatment beyond what you would have on you off duty.


Best intervention you could do at this point would be turn and walk away. Call 911 (or appropriate number for your country) and give as much information as possible. Every detail you can remember from what you saw is important. Leave them with your contact information if they have any further questions and go home to your family without any extra holes in your body. :glare:

 

[sirengirl]

20 shots and only 2 hit their mark. Stop holding guns sideways.

Forcibly reminds me of the day we were talking about some local gang violence, and my middle-aged Hispanic instructor stopped, took the IO gun out, cocked it sideways, and said, "N!&&@, I'll drill yo' a$$!" while toggling the drill trigger :rofl:


Agreed with 99% of posters here. Patient 1, sorry about your luck. Patient 2, sucks to be you right now, hopefully there's a good surgeon on call. I'd be requesting a Bambilance while getting away as quickly as I could. In my town, though, the huge emergency at 2am would most likely be some idiot calling the cops because his weed dealer cheated him....

 

[VFlutter]

Would you want everyone to leave you to bleed to death on the sidewalk while waiting for the police to arrive?

Yes I would, I can hold pressure on my wound, which is the only thing you could do for me, (unless i'm unconscious then I'm just :censored and wait for appropriate help. No point in someone stupidly risking their own life to attemp to save mine.

So you go up on scene and get shot while trying to assist. Now there is 3 patients instead of 2. Who is going to get treated first? The first patient is now definitely getting left for dead, your then possibly delaying care for the second so they can triage you. End result? Maybe both patients die, maybe even you. So what did you help? How is you being there with no equipment or support any type of help? In the end it's just more harm then good.

 

[GaMedic]

I've been watching as this thread fills up with progressively more racist comments, and it is interesting. You ask about my relationship to the "subculture." The culture of violence? My relationship to it is that it happened right in front of me, to other human beings. These people were my neighbors. Yes, I live in the hood. No, these people were not my "homies." They were strangers.

And as far as callously blaming the victims, you might not want to jump to any conclusions. They were innocent bystanders to the real targets. Perhaps I acted as I did because I could have been in their shoes.

Would you want everyone to leave you to bleed to death on the sidewalk while waiting for the police to arrive?

You ask what us as professionals would do in a given situation. Then turn what we say into some form of racism. We as professionals look at situations differently than the average lay person. If you were willing to put yourself in danger to hold some random Joe or Jan's hand while they bleed out in front of you. I applaud you and feel sorry for you at the same time. It was or is a very careless move to put yourself in danger when in reality there isn't anything you can do without having equipment and medications. Once you are in EMS long enough you too will lose faith in humanity.

 

[medichopeful]

I think he was referring to getting shot.... "lead poisoning"

And remember, it's "lead therapy" if the police shoot someone

I kidd, I kidd!

 

[DesertMedic66]

Walk/jog/run in the other direction and call 9-1-1. Then debate moving away from that area (their aim sucks which means I could get shot while just watching TV). The scene is not safe and even for a GSW there isn't anything I am gonna do off duty.

 

[firetender]

Life is cheap; especially if unpaid!

(The following is the opinion of Russ Reina, a firetender, and does not reflect the views of the Community Leaders of this Forum or any other entity of which he is a participant.)​

39 posts.

22 side comments from repeat posters in the thread, a couple of them with no vote, just comment, leaving...

17 "thumbs down" to the victim, Did we establish there was a victim there? Oh, I'm sorry, they're all Perps! Did anyone term the afflicted as "patients"? (I've been studying this thread too much already; you look, see what you find.)

Just to be sure, I'm going back to see if there were any dissenters.

Nope ZIPPO! on the dissent; it's unanimous, no Thumbs Up, let them die!!

You see, NOT A ONE of the respondents hinted that they would even get close enough to LOOK to see the condition of the women! Check this out yourself, this thread is actually worth studying if you really want to understand yourself in relation to the work!

On the "faith in humanity" side, 7 said they'd make the 9-1-1 call, and one said, "Calling 911 would be done once I feel it is safe to do so." How far away do you have to run, drive, crawl or hitchhike before that happens? Just curious, what ARE the protocols for that?

The picture I hope I'm getting is once the shots were fired, you'd all be out of there. To be perfectly honest, so would I, I wouldn't stick around to go looking for the results I can guarantee you of that!

However, as I read the OP, he was in the middle of it. It sought him out. I don't care what you say; when you're in the middle of it EVERYTHING changes!

ROSTOV: My relationship to it is that it happened right in front of me, to other human beings. These people were my neighbors.

It looks like the only person who would take the risk of finding out the level of danger that the victims are in was the OP and he was there.

Let's repeat; of 18 trained medical professionals (am I straining things here?) only O-N-E would be curious enough and have the common sense it takes to protect him/herself from injury -- YES, under those circumstances -- to actually get within a few feet of the PATIENT to make an assessment?

The other seventeen are beating feet away from the fallen.

Beautiful visual, don't you think?

The verdict is in; 20 shots fired into a crowd with only a couple hitting their mark means there is a targeted hit going on, one that is sure to have organized follow-up to make sure the shot get dead and, of course, any stupid :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: that tries to lessen suffering gets popped (for sure, can't you see?).

Someday, all 17 of you (or those like you) will be in the middle of such a scene. Picture the 4th of July at the beach or a public New Year's Eve party, and carnage will be sure to occur; but I suspect it will be of the bystanders trampled while you all stampede for scenes safer than there!

I'm not judging y'all here as much as I'm facinated by how things have changed since I put down my gurney and you picked up cellphones!!

GaMedic said:

Once you are in EMS long enough you too will lose faith in humanity.

That happened to me a long time ago, but I didn't think it would ever include EMS.

Live and learn, I guess! Just like too many people, I forget that EMS workers are human.

Something's happening to our species.