George Floyd Paramedics

[Aprz]

I think I'd stay on scene but it would be in the back of the ambulance. Working arrests in the middle of the street is making things more difficult than it has to be for any scene. I would do my very best to minimize breaks in compressions for sure and if the Lucas was available (I believe it was) I'd try to get on it before any movement.

Do you think it would be reasonable to maybe just slide him behind the police vehicle? I feel like that would be less interruption in compression. Lifting him onto the gurney and lifting the gurney into the ambulance would be interruption. The back of the ambulance is a pretty small place to be working an arrest. Pro side of course is getting away from worked up bystanders.

I've worked a couple of arrests on the side of the street and feel like they went pretty well short of lack of shade.

 

[Tigger]

Do you think it would be reasonable to maybe just slide him behind the police vehicle? I feel like that would be less interruption in compression. Lifting him onto the gurney and lifting the gurney into the ambulance would be interruption. The back of the ambulance is a pretty small place to be working an arrest. Pro side of course is getting away from worked up bystanders.

I've worked a couple of arrests on the side of the street and feel like they went pretty well short of lack of shade.

A Lucas device would eliminate most of all do that.

Without any scene concerns, I’d start on the ground for sure. I’d probably skip my usual ROSC timeout and go straight to the truck if that occurred. Also there is no way any cop around here would let us leave leave a body in the road following these circumstances. Right wrong indifferent, we’re going to have to put this person in the ambulance at some point. Sure you could say I should stand up to them in this case, but that’s not the hill I’m dying on.

 

[DrParasite]

"SO your dispatcher told you to proceed with traffic, but you activated your warning system anyway. You struck my clients now deceased husbands car, killing him. Widow, fatherless children, patent negligence. We ask that the jury award damages in the amount of 10 million dollars"......

you have not explained where the negligence is in your example. not only that, but any MVA with a fatality involving a commercial vehicle can result in a lawsuit, regardless of whether you followed dispatch's directions or not. so your entire first sentence is irrelevant. even if there isn't a death, lawsuits can (and have) been filed to recoup damages.
looking at your own statement:

You can only be found negligent if you are....negligent(duty, breach, damages, proximation etc). Proceeding with due regard and an accident happens isn't negligence. I may still be responsible for the accident, but I'm not negligent. No, really, that matters.

You are focusing on the wrong part: where the "liability" falls is the important part, not the definition of negligence. If you are following your agency's protocols, then the agency should have the most liability. however, if you are going against the agency's protocols, then they can say they aren't liable, because you were acting on your own, and it all falls on you.

 

[DrParasite]

The back of the ambulance is a pretty small place to be working an arrest. Pro side of course is getting away from worked up bystanders.

I've worked plenty of arrests in the back of the ambulance. sometimes the patient coded on us in the truck, other times we moved the arrest from the scene to the truck for transport to the ER (thankfully, we don't do this anymore, and usually under very specific circumstances)

I've worked a couple of arrests on the side of the street and feel like they went pretty well short of lack of shade.

I'm not going to work a code on the side of the street with an angry crowd forming around me. a run of the mill roadway, sure, why not? but out in public, with that angry crowd following an arrest, that's a recipe for disaster. no way am I working that on scene, because unless the patient gets up and tells everyone he feels better, it is likely to put all of my EMS colleagues in the same bad light as what the MPD officers are going through right now.

 

[DragonClaw]

So there was a crowd yes. And with my limited experience, I say treat on scene.

That dude was apneic and pulseless . He needed CPR 5 minutes ago (Figuratively. I didn't count the seconds and we won't know the exact second he died)

Any time waited is going to increase the chances of him staying dead. LUCAS anyone?

You have 4 cops there. They're not medical professionals, so once EMS makes scene, they should keep it secured.

The crowd was not trying to rip Floyd from their grasp, they weren't throwing rocks, they weren't marching on Rome past the Rubicon. They wanted him checked medically.

Once medics show up and the see he's getting immediate help, that would probably do wonders for their justified concerns.

Then again, one could have a gun and just start blasting and then you've maybe got two dead medics who would then would have been told not to go because the scene wasn't safe.

But take him to the ambo as you work on him and not make it look like you just are picking him up for the ME. It looked more like a corpse removal than patient care.

My answer will probably differ once I have street experience and actually rely on LE.

Edit: Though it's not our job to secure a scene, developing good rapport with bystanders may not be a bad play. Generally EMS/Fire don't get as much crap and aren't usually targeted. A Different kind of public trust.

So if there's something reasonable you can do to help show that you're here to help and it's no longer "Nobody is checking him" "He's not breathing" kind of comments, then maybe they'll realize it's "over" and they can simmer down?

We use de-escalation techniques all the time with patients and family. Why not assure them their concerns are heard?

That cop was like "Yeah we checked he's fine" but they didn't really do anything and nothing changed. The crowd knew that.

I'm not saying you have to put on a show but showing you're professional in your job goes a long ways.

 

[DrParasite]

oh, sweet child......

So there was a crowd yes. And with my limited experience, I say treat on scene.

you've clearly never worked the scene with a potentially violent crowd.

That dude was apneic and pulseless. He needed CPR 5 minutes ago (Figuratively. I didn't count the seconds and we won't know the exact second he died)

Any time waited is going to increase the chances of him staying dead. LUCAS anyone?

that is a very fair statement. and an accurate statement.

You have 4 cops there. They're not medical professionals, so once EMS makes a scene, they should keep it secured.

textbook answer: once the cops are on scene, the scene is safe. real word answer: 4 cops in patrol gear against a potentially hostile crowd? they are calling for additional units on a rush, and doing whatever they can do to make sure no one gets hurt, including the cops and EMS.

The crowd was not trying to rip Floyd from their grasp, they weren't throwing rocks, they weren't marching on Rome past the Rubicon. They wanted him checked medically.

and what do you think would have happened if EMS ended up pronouncing him as DOA? The crowd wanted EMS to save him, but if EMS didn't, the crowd could have turned on EMS.

But take him to the ambo as you work on him and not make it look like you just are picking him up for the ME. It looked more like a corpse removal than patient care.

I don't like working with an audience. esp an already hostile audience. esp on a sick patient. I would have treated this like a scoop and run, get everyone off the scene as quick as possible, to a more secure location (even if that means just around the corner).

So if there's something reasonable you can do to help show that you're here to help and it's no longer "Nobody is checking him" "He's not breathing" kind of comments, then maybe they'll realize it's "over" and they can simmer down?

yeah... if you save the guys life, sure... you will be called heroes. if you don't, the crowd will turn on you too.

We use de-escalation techniques all the time with patients and family. Why not assure them their concerns are heard?

Because EMS has other concerns than to calm down the crowd when they have a sick patient? it's also much different to use de-escalation tactics on a small family who knows and understands the situation, compared to a crowd of random strangers that are getting angrier by the moment,

This was a bad situation. a lot of the textbook rules don't apply, or wouldn't work. yes, he needed CPR, yes he was dead or dying, but this was a no-win situation for the EMS crew, who on social media were being called cops with no medical training because they are in uniform and wear vests. It's a bad situation, but staying on scene with the crowd around you isn't going to make anything better.

 

[DragonClaw]

oh, sweet child......you've clearly never worked the scene with a potentially violent crowd.
that is a very fair statement. and an accurate statement.textbook answer: once the cops are on scene, the scene is safe. real word answer: 4 cops in patrol gear against a potentially hostile crowd? they are calling for additional units on a rush, and doing whatever they can do to make sure no one gets hurt, including the cops and EMS.and what do you think would have happened if EMS ended up pronouncing him as DOA? The crowd wanted EMS to save him, but if EMS didn't, the crowd could have turned on EMS.I don't like working with an audience. esp an already hostile audience. esp on a sick patient. I would have treated this like a scoop and run, get everyone off the scene as quick as possible, to a more secure location (even if that means just around the corner).yeah... if you save the guys life, sure... you will be called heroes. if you don't, the crowd will turn on you too.
Because EMS has other concerns than to calm down the crowd when they have a sick patient? it's also much different to use de-escalation tactics on a small family who knows and understands the situation, compared to a crowd of random strangers that are getting angrier by the moment,

This was a bad situation. a lot of the textbook rules don't apply, or wouldn't work. yes, he needed CPR, yes he was dead or dying, but this was a no-win situation for the EMS crew, who on social media were being called cops with no medical training because they are in uniform and wear vests. It's a bad situation, but staying on scene with the crowd around you isn't going to make anything better.

So yes, even less about people pleasing, it's a balance. That dude needed compressions asap.

And like I'm very honest about, I have a small amount of experience in EMS and less in emergent, terse, and hostile scenes.

That's why I openly stated that I'll probably have a different answer later. Not having been in that situation I can't really imagine how bad it could get.

I know sometimes people start suhooting but it's unheard of (or I haven't heard of it) of EMS getting outright attacked.

Sure post a few clips on recent or past attacks, but generally we're not the target.

Correct me if I'm wrong as you usually do.

I guess it's just the "how long did he go without compressions" is what gets me.

 

[cruiseforever]

You have 4 cops there. They're not medical professionals, so once EMS makes scene, they should keep it secured.

The cops cleared the minute EMS left. They knew it was not a good place to stay.

I would have treated it just like an active shooter scene. Go in get the pt. and move to a safer spot.

 

[DrParasite]

I know sometimes people start suhooting but it's unheard of (or I haven't heard of it) of EMS getting outright attacked.

Sure post a few clips on recent or past attacks, but generally we're not the target.

Correct me if I'm wrong as you usually do.

a 2 minute google searched revealed the following... enjoy the reading

Protecting EMS Personnel from Assault - JEMS

Amid reports of high rates of assault-related injuries among emergency medical services (EMS) personnel, anecdotal evidence suggests that many EMS agencies, and individual EMS professionals, are using, or considering the purchase of, a variety of solutions.

www.jems.com

.

IAFF: Violence against fire, EMS personnel 'never acceptable'

The union condemned those who have "interrupted" peaceful protests and directed violence at firefighters and EMS providers

www.ems1.com

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ems/data.html (pay special attention to the violence category)

Denver ambulances attacked during riots

Denver Health said its EMS providers are wearing ballistic vests and helmets as a precaution

www.ems1.com

NFPA Journal - The Toll of Violence, Jan Feb 2019

Violence against EMTs and paramedics is at an all time high. What it means, and how to stop it.

www.nfpa.org

No additional jail time for inmate who assaulted EMT, jumped out of ambulance

William Swagger, 25, pleaded guilty, was sentenced with credit for time served and will be on probation for three years

www.ems1.com

International Survey of Violence Against EMS Personnel: Physical Violence Report - PubMed

In order to develop and implement measures to increase safety, EMS personnel must be involved with the research and implementation process. Furthermore, EMS agencies must work with university researchers to quantify agency-level risks and to develop, test, and implement interventions in such a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Implementing a training program to prevent EMS assaults

Learn how ATCEMS identified EMS training goals and implemented an assault reporting function to protect providers from violence

www.ems1.com

I guess it's just the "how long did he go without compressions" is what gets me.

There is a lot messed up about the situation. While I agree with your concerns, what gets me if how the longer the crews stay on scene, the higher the chances of the crowd getting violent with them.

 

[DragonClaw]

a 2 minute google searched revealed the following... enjoy the reading

Protecting EMS Personnel from Assault - JEMS

Amid reports of high rates of assault-related injuries among emergency medical services (EMS) personnel, anecdotal evidence suggests that many EMS agencies, and individual EMS professionals, are using, or considering the purchase of, a variety of solutions.

www.jems.com

.

IAFF: Violence against fire, EMS personnel 'never acceptable'

The union condemned those who have "interrupted" peaceful protests and directed violence at firefighters and EMS providers

www.ems1.com

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ems/data.html (pay special attention to the violence category)

Denver ambulances attacked during riots

Denver Health said its EMS providers are wearing ballistic vests and helmets as a precaution

www.ems1.com

NFPA Journal - The Toll of Violence, Jan Feb 2019

Violence against EMTs and paramedics is at an all time high. What it means, and how to stop it.

www.nfpa.org

No additional jail time for inmate who assaulted EMT, jumped out of ambulance

William Swagger, 25, pleaded guilty, was sentenced with credit for time served and will be on probation for three years

www.ems1.com

International Survey of Violence Against EMS Personnel: Physical Violence Report - PubMed

In order to develop and implement measures to increase safety, EMS personnel must be involved with the research and implementation process. Furthermore, EMS agencies must work with university researchers to quantify agency-level risks and to develop, test, and implement interventions in such a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Implementing a training program to prevent EMS assaults

Learn how ATCEMS identified EMS training goals and implemented an assault reporting function to protect providers from violence

www.ems1.com

There is a lot messed up about the situation. While I agree with your concerns, what gets me if how the longer the crews stay on scene, the higher the chances of the crowd getting violent with them.

Yes and I understand the chance of conflict goes up. And being the less experienced of the group for now, I'm being the biggest Monday morning QB.

I've never been in any situation that volatile.

It's just hard when Floyd waited so long for medical help and the scene/bystanders are not exactly placated and calm in a low crime area.

If they'd brought a LUCAS with them, just slap it on (after confirming he needed it which he did) and load and go. But I don't know who has what available to them and when.

It's just a crappy situation on a crappy situation that none of us can change.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Yes and I understand the chance of conflict goes up. And being the less experienced of the group for now, I'm being the biggest Monday morning QB.

I've never been in any situation that volatile.

It's just hard when Floyd waited so long for medical help and the scene/bystanders are not exactly placated and calm in a low crime area.

If they'd brought a LUCAS with them, just slap it on (after confirming he needed it which he did) and load and go. But I don't know who has what available to them and when.

It's just a crappy situation on a crappy situation that none of us can change.

They did have the Lucas device with them. When the fire department arrived at the ambulance location the Lucas was already on the him.

 

[DragonClaw]

They did have the Lucas device with them. When the fire department arrived at the ambulance location the Lucas was already on the him.

Is there any official time on when EMS got there and how long it took for them to start compressions?

I mean it just seems like "Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot"

Then again, even if the second EMS got there they started compressions and even if they did get rosc, he might have cerebral ischema

Does it every matter (compressions after retreating rather than before) that point? Is it valid to say that?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Is there any official time on when EMS got there and how long it took for them to start compressions?

I mean it just seems like "Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot"

Then again, even if the second EMS got there they started compressions and even if they did get rosc, he might have cerebral ischema

Does it every matter (compressions after retreating rather than before) that point? Is it valid to say that?

I doubt the EMS run report will become public.

I also doubt the EMS crew was thinking “ Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot”.

Without knowing all the information and without actually being on scene all you are doing is playing Monday night QB and trying to toss a crew under the bus for what you may have viewed as a failure to act. It’s easy to look back at a call and possible think about something you would do differently but when you are the actual one there, things are vastly different.

Could they have worked him on scene? Sure. Could something bad have happened because they stayed on scene? Sure. Could nothing bad have happened because they stayed on scene? Sure. They were not there during the entire event so the information they have is very limited.

 

[DragonClaw]

I doubt the EMS run report will become public.

I also doubt the EMS crew was thinking “ Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot”.

Without knowing all the information and without actually being on scene all you are doing is playing Monday night QB and trying to toss a crew under the bus for what you may have viewed as a failure to act. It’s easy to look back at a call and possible think about something you would do differently but when you are the actual one there, things are vastly different.

Could they have worked him on scene? Sure. Could something bad have happened because they stayed on scene? Sure. Could nothing bad have happened because they stayed on scene? Sure. They were not there during the entire event so the information they have is very limited.

Let me be clear. I'm NOT throwing anyone under the bus.

It seems very much risk/reward and if a medic gets hurt, too hurt to help, they're far worse off and they know that more than me.

But if it was them getting on scene and seeing him code vs 4 minutes or more would the answer be the same?

I'm genuinely just trying to kinda understand these things so if I'm in that situation I can have something to think on more than guessing. Do right by you and your partner and the pt.

I'm not saying they didn't.

 

[CCCSD]

That crew should be indicted for failure to save him. They clearly caused his death by failing to act. Revoke their licensure, sue them, jail them since it was obviously biased of them.

Oh. Wait, that would be prejudging...right?

 

[DragonClaw]

That crew should be indicted for failure to save him. They clearly caused his death by failing to act. Revoke their licensure, sue them, jail them since it was obviously biased of them.

Oh. Wait, that would be prejudging...right?

What even is your problem, man?

 

[VentMonkey]

I’m sticking to my original post.

I also agree with @DesertMedic66. All we’re doing is playing Monday Morning QB to a set of paramedics who most likely have a long legal road ahead of them.

What any of us “would have done” is all hypothetical until we’re thrust into that environment ourselves. Nothing I wish on any of us.

I hope this thread gets locked because I don’t think anything of consequence will come of it. With that, time to “unwatch”.

 

[ffemt8978]

Amd that's enough of this thread. Everyone was warned that bashing on those who were there wouldn't be tolerated.