Firefighter Paramedic killed with his own gun

[guardian528]

Similarly, I'm extremely skeptical that the gun was an "automatic handgun." Semi-automatic? Possible. Fully automatic? No way.

technically, these kind of handguns can be referred to as automatic pistols, meaning they are autoloading after every shot. i think the term came up when pistols that weren't single action began to appear

 

[spinnakr]

Sorry, but conceal carry does not absolve the carrier from practicing basic gun sense. This wasn't an accident, it's due to the stupidity of both the woman and the fire fighter. The rules to safely handle a fire arm are short, simple, and multiple ones have to be broken to have stupidity occur (in contrast to a homicide, justified or not)

Things that never should have happened (assuming valid conceal carry).
Things that never should have happened (assuming not a valid conceal carry).

[Lists cut for brevity - even though they were the most important parts!]

I agree 200%. Furthermore, the story said she pointed the gun at his head, said "I ain't gonna shoot you," and then the gun went off. That shows an extreme disrespect for firearms. As does, for that matter, leaving it on the car seat.

Pointing blame is rather pointless, because I think there's plenty to go around. But ignoring the immense stupidity of the series of actions that transpired?

Somebody can preach to me all day long about how they think guns should be wiped off the face of the earth, and that's completely their prerogative. I probably won't listen, and I certainly won't agree, but I've got no problem with educated opinions. What bothers me is when people form UNeducated opinions: when they act out of fear and stupidity. When people, for example, look at this accident and scream that guns should be melted into oblivion - and miss the obvious idiocy of the whole situation, they are very clearly missing the forest for the trees. Not to mention the fact that many grow up in a kind of community that accepts - no, condones and glorifies - violence as a way of life. We, as a society, need to start taking some personal responsibility for stuff like this.

technically, these kind of handguns can be referred to as automatic pistols, meaning they are autoloading after every shot. i think the term came up when pistols that weren't single action began to appear

While this is true, word choice is everything, and I think that choice of words is highly indicative of the bias of the article's author.

 

[Summit]

technically, these kind of handguns can be referred to as automatic pistols, meaning they are autoloading after every shot. i think the term came up when pistols that weren't single action began to appear

technically they are referred to as autoloading or semi-automatic. automatic pistols are machine pistols.

 

[DV_EMT]

I honestly don't think the OP has control over when a paramedic gets shot and dies... The article's date is 12/3/2009. It's not as if it is an old article she pulled up.

Right... I understand the fact that it's a "new" story... but the fact that it was immediately posted after one thread was locked because of "heated debate" on the subject... it seems like a). the OP is trying to get the last word in about the subject and b). its like adding salt to a fresh wound thats trying to heal in the sense that the thread was locked FOR A REASON... and so therefore the OP bypassed the locked thread to.. troll and flare up the people who were involved in the original threads.

This story..... was coincidence

This post 48 hours after the "armed EMS" was locked - no coincidence (esp with the fact that the OP was a rather large voice involved in the locked thread)

like i said before... the family is in my prayers

 

[Akulahawk]

Yes but the consequences for some acts of stupidity are not as great. One could just end up with a traffic ticket for being stupid in a car. If the act is stupid enough, one shouldn't be driving and hopefully their DL can be suspended or revoked.

However, with either a car or a gun, the responsibility must be recognized. When you choose to own one or both you must be aware of your actions. If you are behind the wheel of a car, you should not be distracted by texting. If you have your gun in your hand, you should be mindful where your are going to point it or leave it especially in the presence of people who may not be familiar with guns.

Of course, one could also end up dead or killing others for being stupid in a car. A couple years ago, a local High School kid killed himself and his passenger when he wrapped his car around a pole... because he was stupid with his car and lost control of it.

He left his gun, loaded or unloaded with a minor and 2 others who probably had no firearm training and did not know the basic rules even though they might seem obvious like not pointing a gun at someone.



No it is not the gun but if used incorrectly or in the hands of people who fail to follow the basic rules, a gun is very dangerous. This was a death that did not have to happen. It was his own gun that initiated the events and not some inattentive driver. This lapse of safety cost this young man his life and the life of the young woman will never be the same.

Regardless of how the facts may fall, that gun should have been secured. It is useless to blame the young man who lost his life but some should take notice as to how one little slip of the basic rules of safety can change lives very quickly.

While there's a lot I agree with in your post, I disagree with the assertion that "t was his own gun that initiated the events". No. It wasn't. The gun is an inanimate object. The person who is responsible for initiating the chain of events is the Paramedic himself. He didn't secure the gun. He didn't clear it. The one most responsible for violating the safety rules is the woman that shot him. She shouldn't have picked up the gun. She shouldn't have pointed it at him. She shouldn't have pulled the trigger.

Because he didn't follow the rules and she didn't either, someone died. That's a tragedy. Simply following the rules would have prevented his death. I predict that she'll spend a few years in prison, but won't serve anywhere close to life. If the events are accurately reported, it seems that she didn't intend to actually shoot him... and in the end, he'll still be dead.

The same thing goes for other things in life... if someone doesn't follow the basic rules of driving, it's very possible that someone could die as a result.

I'd imagine that many deaths could have been easily prevented simply by someone following basic safety rules...

 

[DV_EMT]

Of course, one could also end up dead or killing others for being stupid in a car. A couple years ago, a local High School kid killed himself and his passenger when he wrapped his car around a pole... because he was stupid with his car and lost control of it.

While there's a lot I agree with in your post, I disagree with the assertion that "t was his own gun that initiated the events". No. It wasn't. The gun is an inanimate object.

The same thing goes for other things in life... if someone doesn't follow the basic rules of driving, it's very possible that someone could die as a result.

I'd imagine that many deaths could have been easily prevented simply by someone following basic safety rules...

AMEN TO THAT!!!

 

[reaper]

Quit Whining!

The post is perfectly appropriate. It is about a tragedy from lack of safety. Has nothing to do with carry on duty!

 

[VentMedic]

Right... I understand the fact that it's a "new" story... but the fact that it was immediately posted after one thread was locked because of "heated debate" on the subject... it seems like a). the OP is trying to get the last word in about the subject and b). its like adding salt to a fresh wound thats trying to heal in the sense that the thread was locked FOR A REASON... and so therefore the OP bypassed the locked thread to.. troll and flare up the people who were involved in the original threads.

This story..... was coincidence

This post 48 hours after the "armed EMS" was locked - no coincidence (esp with the fact that the OP was a rather large voice involved in the locked thread)

like i said before... the family is in my prayers

Bypassed the thread?

Are you trying to blame the guy for having bad timing for getting killed after some talked about weapons on this silly forum?

WTF is wrong with posting some reality? The other threads were full of "what ifs". This news article is not a "what if". His death is very real. Are you really that opposed to the safety issues being mentioned? Just turn a blind eye to what actually can happen if you ignor some of the basics? The average age on this forum has become about 18 and less if it is by maturity. Some do need to hear the basics of safety over and over. Some do need to read about real life and not just what they see on TV. The young man in this article IS NOT an actor. He would be collecting a pay check for his role here.

Unfortunate that this had to involve the death of a young person, but this is the perfect time for this thread. I pray for those around some here who are so stupid to believe that safety is not important.

 

[VentMedic]

Of course, one could also end up dead or killing others for being stupid in a car. A couple years ago, a local High School kid killed himself and his passenger when he wrapped his car around a pole... because he was stupid with his car and lost control of it.

This article is NOT about a car. This is about a gun and someone who failed to follow a few basic rules of safety. Avoidance of the safety of guns does not make them go away. We can still have concealed carry permits and I do have one.

I just believe some need to be reminded at how easy it is to get carried away and forget the basics of safety whether it is your own weapon or that of someone else.

While there's a lot I agree with in your post, I disagree with the assertion that "t was his own gun that initiated the events". No. It wasn't. The gun is an inanimate object. The person who is responsible for initiating the chain of events is the Paramedic himself. He didn't secure the gun. He didn't clear it. The one most responsible for violating the safety rules is the woman that shot him. She shouldn't have picked up the gun. She shouldn't have pointed it at him. She shouldn't have pulled the trigger.

Because he didn't follow the rules and she didn't either, someone died. That's a tragedy. Simply following the rules would have prevented his death. I predict that she'll spend a few years in prison, but won't serve anywhere close to life. If the events are accurately reported, it seems that she didn't intend to actually shoot him... and in the end, he'll still be dead.

The same thing goes for other things in life... if someone doesn't follow the basic rules of driving, it's very possible that someone could die as a result.

I'd imagine that many deaths could have been easily prevented simply by someone following basic safety rules...

You edited my comments to fit your own opinion here. Did I not say it was his actions and did I not say it was not the gun?

It just amazes me that some here actually believe they are part of Public Safety and yet they do not want to acknowledge any of the safety part whether it is for themselves or others.

It also is a sad note that some on this forum believe a discussion about safety makes a person a troll. That truly speaks volumes about the attitudes here and it is very sad to see some want to wreck what could be a decent thread because they have their own "guns can do no wrong agenda" and the people who carry them are perfect so there is no need for any pointers on safety.

 

[mycrofft]

This post is excellent, but the responses have spun away from the reality.

Ask the hard questions and look at the pragmatic answers...as far as this news article tells us (they always get it wrong anyway). If this happened at home and the victim wasn't a firefighter, or the shooter wasn't a teenaged girl, it might have made the end of the eleven oclock news if it was a slow day.

There is one reason to be driving around with a loaded firearm on the car seat (other than inebriation), and that is the willingness and anticipation (realistic or not) to bring it into play rapidly. (Well, two reasons if you were trying to impress an eighteen year old).

And what was the eighteen year old girl doing in this scenario? Why did she pick up someone else's gun, point and fire it then toss it away? What does this do the rest of her life as well?

It's painful to learn these sorts of lessons, but this is what happens, and if people don't take it to heart it can strike home.

What was the reason to be driving around with a loaded gun in the car?
"This was not Beirut" as we used to say. Although the news doesn't report it, many of the GSW subjects I have seen outside and inside jail were where they should not have been, with people they should not have been around, and often doing things they should not have.

I apologize to our armchair tacticians and our "FF, right or wrong" folks (being a former firefighter myself), but my feeling here is that this was a young man not with a gun training problem, but a cultural/behavioral one including guns, cars and girls.

 

[reaper]

This was in Jacksonville. 90% of the city is not good areas. Half the city is probably armed, whether legal or not!

 

[spinnakr]

my feeling here is that this was a young man not with a gun training problem, but a cultural/behavioral one including guns, cars and girls.

I think this particular cultural/behavioral problem has a tendency to breed safety problems and training problems, particularly when it comes to firearms.

 

[Akulahawk]

Vent, I actually agreed with MOST of your post.

This article is NOT about a car. This is about a gun and someone who failed to follow a few basic rules of safety. Avoidance of the safety of guns does not make them go away. We can still have concealed carry permits and I do have one.

I just believe some need to be reminded at how easy it is to get carried away and forget the basics of safety whether it is your own weapon or that of someone else.


Yes, I agree with that above.

You edited my comments to fit your own opinion here. Did I not say it was his actions and did I not say it was not the gun?

You did, but you also made the statement I quoted. A statement that clearly put the initiation of events upon the gun. An object which we all agree is inanimate, and therefore can not initiate events on it's own. I thought it a little odd that you made that statement and later said it was the guy and not the gun.

It just amazes me that some here actually believe they are part of Public Safety and yet they do not want to acknowledge any of the safety part whether it is for themselves or others.

It also is a sad note that some on this forum believe a discussion about safety makes a person a troll. That truly speaks volumes about the attitudes here and it is very sad to see some want to wreck what could be a decent thread because they have their own "guns can do no wrong agenda" and the people who carry them are perfect so there is no need for any pointers on safety.

My own view is that guns can do no wrong or good. They're inanimate. It is the person using the gun that chooses how it is employed. I have absolutely no illusion that people who own guns are perfect... they're far from it. That includes Law Enforcement, who are supposed to be the best trained firearms people around and therefore are infallible when it comes to firearms handling. At my local range, the most frequently injured people happen to be Law Enforcement...

The guy that died and the woman who shot him clearly made some seriously wrong choices that ended up in his death and her being charged with manslaughter. The really tragic part is that while one person died, one person will likely be imprisoned, and one 16 year old will never forget what happened their families have been forever impacted by all of this... and not for the better.

 

[FF-EMT Diver]

Are you kidding me??????

Ok OK let Vent post what she want's it's a free forum for all. I don't like her view of guns and she may not like mine but last I checked we didnt have to!! she has every right to post a news article whether she's trying to get the "last word" or not.

The best course of action IMHO is to leave it alone if you truly think she or anyone else is doing as a get back then just ignore tham and dont post, as the old saying use to be " dont feed the dog and it'll leave"....

Come on folks, lets police ourselves and then we won't have threads getting locked!

This horrble senseless tragedy was not caused by a firearm per se. It was caused by two individuals doing some very stupid things and making grave irreversible mistakes at the same time...

Also lets not hang up on "concealed carry", In some places weapons can be carried openly with NO permit, in others it can be carried on a vehicle, home, office, etc...without a permit. regardless the mistake was made when the weapon was left on the seat unsecured.....I want to point out for those of us that carry for self defense, how much use would that gun have been to him had a would be attacker gotten it out of the seat while he was pumping fuel??? IMO he probably had it on the seat to impress a female.

 

[foxfire]

Are you kidding me??????

Ok OK let Vent post what she want's it's a free forum for all. I don't like her view of guns and she may not like mine but last I checked we didnt have to!! she has every right to post a news article whether she's trying to get the "last word" or not.

The best course of action IMHO is to leave it alone if you truly think she or anyone else is doing as a get back then just ignore tham and dont post, as the old saying use to be " dont feed the dog and it'll leave"....

Come on folks, lets police ourselves and then we won't have threads getting locked!

This horrble senseless tragedy was not caused by a firearm per se. It was caused by two individuals doing some very stupid things and making grave irreversible mistakes at the same time...

Also lets not hang up on "concealed carry", In some places weapons can be carried openly with NO permit, in others it can be carried on a vehicle, home, office, etc...without a permit. regardless the mistake was made when the weapon was left on the seat unsecured.....I want to point out for those of us that carry for self defense, how much use would that gun have been to him had a would be attacker gotten it out of the seat while he was pumping fuel??? IMO he probably had it on the seat to impress a female.

Agreed and well put.
Two irreversable bad choices made.
the family are in my prayers.

 

[firecoins]

EMTs making bad mistakes with guns while on duty is a real possibility. If the FF/Medic made a grave mistake on duty, he can make a similiar one on duty.

 

[Outbac1]

The need for proper training

Legally owned and carried are not the point. He doesn't appear to have been properly trained in how to use a firearm as he didn't render it safe. (Unloaded and secured). Or maybe he did and got lazy. She picked up a firearm she knew nothing about and didn't own or have permission to handle it. She then broke several firearm rules she appears to have known nothing about.
Did not control the muzzle by pointing in a safe direction.
Did not confirm its loaded or unloaded status.
Did not then keep her @#%$^&#@ finger off the trigger.

Proper firearm training MAY have prevented this or similar tradgedies. However common sense cannot be taught or legislated. Stupidity will prevail.

 

[Jon]

Sounds like a Darwin Award... not a EMS related death.

If I'm filling my gas tank at 0100... I'd think one would want to have the gun on my person, not on the car seat. Further, the Darwin award line goes with leaving the gun in the car with folks not familiar with firearms.

Third - whats with the shooter trying to hide the gun? Seriously? That REALLY doesn't pass the sniff test.

+1 to all the posters who have pointed out all the breaches in common firearm safety practice that had to occur for this, "negligent discharge" to take place - if it really was just that, and not intentional.

Still... it is sad to see such a promising young life cut short. But I know some of the forum members would have hated him, because I'm sure "he just got his medic so he could get a job as a firefighter".

 

[nomofica]

This is why firearm safety should be offered to all EMS/fire personnel. Either that, or a strict "DO NOT TOUCH" policy.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

I agree, this thread is totally appropriate.

It seems from the article, though, that this was a failure to follow basic rules of firearm safety - both on his part, in that he left the loaded firearm sitting around, and on the part of the woman who shot him. You treat any gun as if it's loaded, and you never, ever point a gun at anyone or anything you don't intend to shoot.

For me, the reality of this situation is that it is an absolute tragedy that may wind up ending two lives. His, obviously, and the woman who is now facing manslaughter charges. If the article is right, he was working on bettering himself as a Paramedic, and may have had a bright future. Now that won't happen. But that has little to do with the gun - he could have just as easily been hit by an inattentive driver while stepping out of an ambulance, or fallen down the stairs. I think we should avoid the temptation to wave the bloody shirt and scream how this makes guns inherently evil.

I agree completely. My daughter is four and can shoot, but she is supervised and I don't let her use it without ME being there. Guns are only as safe as the operator.

"This equipment does not have a brain, use your own"

I am sorry it ended this way however. It really is a shame.