Firefighter Paramedic killed with his own gun

[Jon]

I was taught also at a young age and I do have a concealed weapon permit which I already stated how easy it is to get. I do have a gun in my house that is accessible to me. Everyone in my house has had gun training. However, being in a nice middle class neighborhood is a big difference from where the hospital I work at and the kids I see coming in with trauma from weapons. Most did not have Ward Cleaver around to teach them how to shoot safely and many don't even know their fathers. They had very different lessons in life than you or I. Shooting skeets at the country club just doesn't compare with drive bys for turf wars and drug deals.

Vent,

You seem to want to catorgoize firearms as "one culture". You just acknowledged that those that take responsibility for owning firearms and education aren't really the problem.

With a few exceptions, including the unfortunate FF/EMTP who is the start of this thread, lawfully owned and carried firearms aren't involved in crimes. It's the folks that obtain them illegally and carry them illegally that cause problems like you discuss.

Heres the rub - these folks are ALREADY breaking the law to possess firearms - they are underage, have criminal records (or both). They aren't going to give up their guns just because another law is passed saying folks can't own guns - they already are BREAKING the law.

Whats the line? When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns?

 

[VentMedic]

Vent,

You seem to want to catorgoize firearms as "one culture". You just acknowledged that those that take responsibility for owning firearms and education aren't really the problem.

Jon,

Did you answer any of my questions about EMTs with 2 hours of training being allowed to carry at work? Insurance? Employer verses employee liability? Competency?

I respect now and have always respected the FDs and hospitals for not wanting their employees to be carrying a gun while at work. What is so difficult about that concept? Just stating "it's my right" and ignoring the many factors involved in such a decision? Who is going to ensure you are trained well enough to carry on the job?

Here are the other questions I have asked but yet no one has answered.

However, there are several who may never have given a thought about the real consequences that can occur with a gun. They may purchase it after reading the many threads on an EMS forum because some anonymous poster gave reasons that sounded good. There has also be advice that it is your right to carry and your employer can't stop nor do they even have to know. Many here are still trying to figure out EMS and caring for a patient but now you want them to carry a weapon to possibly use deadly force on their patients? LEOs go into their job everyday with that reality that they may have to use their gun but should someone who wants to be a medical professional have to be presented with the same expectations everyday when working on an ambulance? Is this any different than expecting someone to fight fires who only wants to do patient care? And yes so will argue that only a few will carry but again what few and should their (company and employees) insurance rates be raised because a few want to carry a gun? Should the employer require proof of competency from the employee if they are carrying on ambulances? Will the employer then be more liable for the training provided? Will there be a new expectation from the public if EMS providers retreat from a situation when they are armed? Will the public expect them to act without PD because the EMT(P)s are now armed?

What you do when not at work or when not wearing an EMT patch is your own business. When you are visible in the public eye with your employer's ambulance and uniform, you will be held accountable to a very different standard than Country Club Joe Public who is preventing his BMW from being stolen.

For those of you who want to chat about your God given right to carry a gun regardless of the rules of your agency when doing patient care either on the ambulance or in the hospital, here is a forum better suited for you.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/

Heres the rub - these folks are ALREADY breaking the law to possess firearms - they are underage, have criminal records (or both). They aren't going to give up their guns just because another law is passed saying folks can't own guns - they already are BREAKING the law.

Do health care professionals have to continue with "its okay to carry a gun" or "look at how cool I am as a Paramedic or FF"? "I may be a role model and I carry a gun to work everyday on the ambulance just incase I meet a bad guy I have to kill". When do we start teaching these kids that guns are not the answer to their problems? Why encourage them by setting an example that guns are great in what should be a "safe" environment (hospital and ambulance) free of the guns and violence they know all to well?

 

[ffemt8978]

At this time there is not one ambulance service or FD that allows carry.

But, are you okay with the training requirements? Do you believe a few short hours with very little gun experience will protect someone on the job? Are we over training out LEOs? Wow, maybe we could save hundreds of thousands of dollars by just having them take the 2 hour conceal weapons course.

Do you carry with the full knowledge of your employer or volunteer agency? But then should it be different because you are a volunteer and not really a paid employee?

I'm not going to answer that, because as you pointed out in this post http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=203194#post203194 this is not the forum for it.

The rest of this post is directed at EVERYONE who posted in this thread, and not one member in particular:

If you want to discuss firearms as it pertains to EMS, then this thread can continue. If you want to discuss training requirements, who should be allowed to carry, if you should be allowed to carry, or anything else pertaining to firearms then this thread will be closed. This is not a firearms forum.

 

[VentMedic]

I'm not going to answer that, because as you pointed out in this post http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=203194#post203194 this is not the forum for it.

The rest of this post is directed at EVERYONE who posted in this thread, and not one member in particular:

If you want to discuss firearms as it pertains to EMS, then this thread can continue. If you want to discuss training requirements, who should be allowed to carry, if you should be allowed to carry, or anything else pertaining to firearms then this thread will be closed. This is not a firearms forum.

I really wanted to know how you would answer what additional training an EMT should have in order to carry on an ambulance. Is a 2 hour concealed weapons class enough? Should the EMT tell his employer that he is carrying a weapon on the ambulance especially in the patient compartment?

This is about EMS as my posts here have clearly pointed out. You have challenged me to questions which I have provided the answers but yet you still evade my questions about training, insurance and competency.

Do you feel every 18 y/o EMT has the right to carry on an ambulance regardless of what their employer says and with only the minimum hours of training required for a concealed weapon permit?

 

[ffemt8978]

I really wanted to know how you would answer what additional training an EMT should have in order to carry on an ambulance. Is a 2 hour concealed weapons class enough? Should the EMT tell his employer that he is carrying a weapon on the ambulance especially in the patient compartment?

This is about EMS as my posts here have clearly pointed out. You have challenged me to questions which I have provided the answers but yet you still evade my questions about training, insurance and competency.

Do you feel every 18 y/o EMT has the right to carry on an ambulance regardless of what their employer says and with only the minimum hours of training required for a concealed weapon permit?

Each state's laws are different for the minimum age to carry a concealed weapon, but federal law prohibits anyone younger than 21 from purchasing a handgun and most states follow this example. So I'm not sure where you are coming up with your 18y/o example.

As far as training goes, I'm of a split opinion on this. I don't recall anywhere in the Second Amendment that requires a person to receive training prior to bearing arms. I do support the individual owner taking the responsibility for their own actions, and going out to receive the training on their own.

As to the rest of your issues, that is something better discussed on a firearms related forum and not here.

 

[VentMedic]

Each state's laws are different for the minimum age to carry a concealed weapon, but federal law prohibits anyone younger than 21 from purchasing a handgun and most states follow this example. So I'm not sure where you are coming up with your 18y/o example.

As far as training goes, I'm of a split opinion on this. I don't recall anywhere in the Second Amendment that requires a person to receive training prior to bearing arms. I do support the individual owner taking the responsibility for their own actions, and going out to receive the training on their own.

As to the rest of your issues, that is something better discussed on a firearms related forum and not here.

18 y/o is the age for several states.

So you do not believe EMTs should have any firearm training to carry on job on their employer's ambulance? You support but don't feel it should be a requirement? Again, what about the owner of the ambulance service?

NO ONE should ever handle a weapon without proper training and education. Even those who lay claim to being trained by their daddy should take a course just to be familar with the laws.

You stated this thread could stay open as long as it pertained to EMS.
Why are you so evasive to my questions? Do you carry on the ambulance and as a volunteer do you feel you are exempt? Do you have a permit or do you feel that the Second Amendment protects you from abiding by state laws?

 

[JPINFV]

As to the rest of your issues, that is something better discussed on a firearms related forum and not here.

Well... there always is the lounge for off topic discussion. Heck, even the anesthesiology residency forum at SDN had a gun thread recently.


AR 15 thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=680329

Self defense thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=669660

 

[VentMedic]

Well... there always is the lounge for off topic discussion. Heck, even the anesthesiology residency forum at SDN had a gun thread recently.


AR 15 thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=680329

Self defense thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=669660

Have you notified your educators that you are carrying a weapon to class and into the hospital's patient areas?

 

[JPINFV]

Yes... because posting threads about people who enjoy guns and realize the potential for self defense automatically means that they carry into the hospital.

 

[VentMedic]

Yes... because posting threads about people who enjoy guns and realize the potential for self defense automatically means that they carry into the hospital.

Do you think the EMT(P)s carrying are going to take time to place their gun in a lock box in front of the patient before going into the hospital? Of course, if the hospital is set up with good security, they would have to.

But, you also didn't answer my question about telling your educators that you are carrying a concealed weapon in class and in the hospital.

If you are proud of it you should be able to discuss it with them. Even if you don't get their approval you could probably still get away with carrying.

Again, this thread is about EMS and health care professionals carrying weapons on the job.

 

[JPINFV]

But, you also didn't answer my question about telling your educators that you are carrying a concealed weapon in class and in the hospital.

Irrelevent question because I've never stated that I conceal carry.

If you are proud of it you should be able to discuss it with them. Even if you don't get their approval you could probably still get away with carrying.

That is largely true, since by the definition of conceal carry, it is concealed. However, good luck if you do get caught either by accident or necessity.

Again, this thread is about EMS and health care professionals carrying weapons on the job.

That's the topic only when it suites your view. For example, you've brought up incidents with unsecured guns being found at home by children which has absolutely squat to do with concealed carry while at work.

 

[VentMedic]

That's the topic only when it suites your view. For example, you've brought up incidents with unsecured guns being found at home by children which has absolutely squat to do with concealed carry while at work.

No I did not dwell on what parents do with their children. My comments were directed totally as the EMS providers and you as a future doctor being a role model and justifying that guns are great and all the kids who are in gangs should have one.

Actually, YOU brought up the topic of unsecured guns in the home:

Ever thought that maybe if kids were taught about firearms then some of the "accidents" (a gun left loaded and out isn't an "accident," it's stupidity and negligence on the part of the gun owner), then many of the accidents wouldn't happen? I was taught to shoot at a young age and never had an urge to break into my father's gun cabinet to play with the fire arms. Of course storing guns unloaded in a gun display case is different than loaded in a bedside table or in a shoe box in the top of a closet.

I also didn't make the rules here as I wanted to continue discussing what should be adequate training for the EMT to carry weapon while on duty.

But...

If you want to discuss firearms as it pertains to EMS, then this thread can continue.

 

[JPINFV]

Vent, did you miss the fact that I was responding to one of your posts? That entire quote is more accurate as follows:

There is a big difference between you skeet shooting at some country club or range and the kids in the gangs that shoot each other in the street.

Are you going to tell the kids how cool guns are? Do you want to be known to these kids as an EMT or Physician or as someone carrying a cool gun?

Seeing an eight y/o coming into the ED with his brains dripping out of his skull because his friend thought it was cool to play with a gun whether they are part of a gang or because Daddy has some cool guns is not a good thing.

Ever thought that maybe if kids were taught about firearms then some of the "accidents" (a gun left loaded and out isn't an "accident," it's stupidity and negligence on the part of the gun owner), then many of the accidents wouldn't happen? I was taught to shoot at a young age and never had an urge to break into my father's gun cabinet to play with the fire arms. Of course storing guns unloaded in a gun display case is different than loaded in a bedside table or in a shoe box in the top of a closet.

Emphasis added.


Additionally, where did I say that either, kids should be in gangs (implied) or that I endorse that kids in gangs should have guns? There's a difference between endorsement and understanding that organizations who operate outside of the law (such as gangs) generally don't follow the law. As such, making broad laws that cover everyone while targeting them doesn't produce the desired results. I'm pretty sure that kids in gangs are inspired by other gang members to carry fire arms and not someone who is legally carrying a fire arm.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

FYI, I keep several loaded firearms in my home. If someone is breaking in to my home, I should say "hey, wait a minute please so I can unlock and load my weapon, then you can break in". NO!!! I have a two y/o and a 4 y/o, and just take a guess how many times they have touched a firearm w/o permission...NONE...EVER!!! It is not the weapon, but how your raise your children. My daughter is 4 and she already owns her own 22 Ruger, and she knows how to safely use it. Don't get me wrong, she is ONLY allowed to use t under my personal supervision, but she knows the safety rules, and she knows what will happen if she even comes close to violating any rule of conduct regarding the firearm. They walk past them every other minute of every other day, and although they know what they are, they know not to touch. They learned the same way I did, at like me, they learned from birth.

I have yet to see a kid have an accident with a firearm where proper instruction and a lifestyle geared toward the safe operation of a firearm resulted in an accident. I have seen a few occasions where an intruder came into someone's home and the kid prevented him/ herself from being assaulted however.

The fact is that more people are killed every year by food poisoning then firearms, further more for every one firearm crime committed, 4 are prevented because a law abiding and responsible citizen had and properly used a firearm; the media doesn't tell you this, but it is plain to see on the CDC's website, as well on the Department of Justice’s website.

It really irks me to see the police have firearms to protect themselves, but someone no one else, especially us, should have the right? Why is their life, and their families life more important and worth protecting then mine? and my family?

It has been proven in communities where the people are allowed to carry firearms enjoy a far lower crime rate than those who do not, and the reverse is equally true. In the field we are subject to a variety of personal hazards. We live in an age where human life is worth no more than the change in your pocket, and unfortunately we are all too often caught in the cross fire. LE is not always available when they are needed, this is a fact of life; we should be trained and equipped to handle the age in which we live. If a Medic works in an area where he/ she feel it necessary to carry for their protection, concealed of otherwise, they should have the right. Don’t get me wrong, proper training is an absolute must, but the opportunity should be present. Everyone has the right to feel safe and secure. If someone doesn’t want to carry okay this opinion should be respected, but if someone feels this need, it should be respected as well.

 

[VentMedic]

I have yet to see a kid have an accident with a firearm where proper instruction and a lifestyle geared toward the safe operation of a firearm resulted in an accident. I have seen a few occasions where an intruder came into someone's home and the kid prevented him/ herself from being assaulted however.

The kids who get themselves shot didn't always have daddy around to teach them how to shoot a gun or he may have come around inbetween prison terms.

It really irks me to see the police have firearms to protect themselves, but someone no one else, especially us, should have the right? Why is their life, and their families life more important and worth protecting then mine? and my family?

So you are saying the concealed weapon permit is no different than the training in of an LEO?

Does that mean you are in favor of all 18 y/o EMTs getting issued a gun with their EMT card and be allowed to carry?

We have already seen very deadly mistakes made by LEOs who also have SWAT training just recently that will change lives forever. The Oakland BART officier probably didn't mean to shoot the guy who was already down and his face showed his emotion. The Oakland SWAT members will replay their mistakes that go their 2 co-workers killed over and over in their mind. Emotions and the heat of the moment can skew one's judgement. Carrying a weapon every shift on an ambulance with the expectation of using it for deadly force can be more than some are ready for at a young age and with only a conceal weapon permit for training which may be a whole two hours and a couple of shots fired on a range.

If someone doesn’t want to carry okay this opinion should be respected, but if someone feels this need, it should be respected as well.

But would that be fair? The dispatchers would have to send only the EMTs who are armed to the high risk calls and the others could do the nice neighborhoods. If you are going to operate as a Public Safety Officer it should be done properly with the correct job title and trainning. No half arsed education/training and levels like EMS tends to do.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Does your company know you are carrying a gun on the job? Is there a specific policy for it? Does the college know you are carrying a gun to class?

I follow all state, agency, institution laws and regulations.

Are you saying the Vietnam War wasn't all that bad?

Look at the number of just the U.S. young men and women who went into that war situation or any war situation and compare it with the total number of people in the U.S. who drive a car. Look then at the number of hours stretching several decades that people drive their cars versus the years the Vietnam War lasted. You may also be counting just the U.S. soldiers who died and ignoring the death to all the soldiers and the civilians. I don't consider 3 to 4 million dead Vietnamese, 1.5 to 2 million dead Laotians and Cambodians, and 58,159 dead U.S. soldiers to be insignificant.

People often toss in the stats for just the dead U.S. soldiers in Vietnam and rarely think about the death it brought overall. But then, if they are the enemy should they be counted? If they are civilians, shouldn't they have known better than to be in a place where they could be shot or assassinated. It is clearly all their own fault as some would lead you to believe.

We may never know how many actually died in the Vietnam War since some still want to just call it a "conflict".

I am talking about the U.S., I do not have MVC/MVA information for Cambodia and Vietnam. No matter what you say, U.S. vehicle related accidents cause more deaths every 12 months than every U.S. armed forced member killed in the entire course of the Vietnam war. Thats still a staggering fact to me. In the United States vehicle deaths make guns look like nothing. Maybe we should just take away everyones car?

 

[281mustang]

18 y/o is the age for several states.

For which states?

 

[ffemt8978]

And that's enough of this thread.