Faith / Is there a place for God in EMS?

[firecoins]

I'm not going to say much, but I, and many others do take offense to this. This was not my intent by reviving this topic, and I will leave it at that.

I don't apologize for mentioning the well known joke. Nor do I apologize for being an aethist. It my right to be a comedian and an aethist as is your right to be whatever you are. Your being "offended" is just as offensive.

 

[TKO]

I LOL'ed. I think this may just be a matter of miscommunication, so let's all just have a pint of D50 and relax.

 

[Ridryder911]

I am amazed on how differently EMS is than other health care professions. For example in nursing, faith is stressed through out most programs both being recognized for the patient and the provider as well.

As a Christian, I could turn the wording around ask .."There is never not a place for God, especially in EMS"....

In realistic terms, I think sometimes we take our job way too serious, and then maybe not serious enough. Our job is really simple, to give immediate aid and support for the sick and injured, and transport them, that is about it. During this time you are a representative of the health care team, and the patient will have both physical and emotional needs. The emotional needs are just as important as the physical needs in some cases, if not all.

If the patient is ill, I will pray and work at the same time. I do personally believe I am mere instrument and as usual do multitasking. If the patient request spiritual needs, I can perform multiple tasks, by simply stating.." I need to perform this; but we can silently ask and pray.

The same being true of our own needs. What we are exposed to and deal with even in those short period of time, can be overwhelming. I can claim that my faith has allowed to me to pursue and continue this career, thirty times longer than the average medic. I do personally believe that there is always a place for my faith to shine, by my actions and if need be by my discussion and if the patient wants to a prayer so be it.

We have an excellent Medical Chaplain, that intervenes with patients, families, and staff alike. His actions and interpersonal skills has been a "blessing" in multiple ways. Especially in crisis situations. He is quite aware of the medical needs, and actions that has to be taken, having faith will not intercept such as actions.

I do not "preach" to no one. I personally do not believe that this leads to any positive action, rather; hopefully other will see in me, what they may desire.


R/r 911

 

[Gbro]

There is a place for God in everything we do. However i believe in only 1 God and in the event of someone looking for comfort in an...... G.. , Well i cannot buy into that and will pray for the Pt's salvation (and mine).
There is no room for hypocrisy in believing in the God of Abraham.

As for Rid's "Guru" conclusion that there is no benefit in CISD, Well he is just full of BS, We have had some fantastic results from CISD's.

 

[firecoins]

Let me seriously address the origianl post here as an aethist. Religion in and of itself is not a factor in how I treat a patient. I deal with several major religions with followers of different levels of belief i.e. Hassidic Jews through reformed Jews. I am as respectful as possible and thats all I can do. Providing religious advice is out of my scope of practise.

As for EMS providers, cops, firefighters, ER employees, If they can bring in their religion, I can bring in my aethism. Leave it at home.

 

[emtwannabe]

As a Christian, let me throw my 2 cents into the fray. Coins, you have every right to be an Atheist every day and twice on Sunday if you so desire. That is one of the freedoms we enjoy living here in America.

I , however, do have the right to my religious views as well. To say, "leave it at home", is both insulting and ignorant. One does not just shut off their beliefs like a switch when they put their uniform on. To say that is like asking certain people not to breathe. I wear a bracelet that says "GODSTRONG". It has a particular verse from the bible that reminds me how I am to act while I am on this planet.

I would never prostelytize any person to convert to Christianity, and as an Evangelical, that goes against the basic tenants of my faith. As a matter of fact, I would like to hear your particular views on your athiesim.

Long rebuttal short, if someone notices my bracelet, and ASKS me to pray with them, or tell them about Jesus, I will. If my doing so gives someone else hope, no matter what situation they are in, I feel obligated by my relationship with my God to do so.

Just as you are entitled not to do so.

Pm me if you want to talk further.

 

[TKO]

Great advice, Firecoins. "Leave it at home".

I'm not going to debate which faith is right, beit christianity, muslim, hindu, judaism, zoroastrian or atheism. But I do believe that it doesn't belong in EMS or the ER.

We know that it is rude to discuss it at the dinner table with guests. We should all know that it doesn't belong in schools. And we should be aware that it doesn't belong in EMS.

Leave it at home. Don't bring your opinions to work with you. If you have a bad fight with the spouse, you leave it at home. If you have problems with management, you leave it at home. If you find love on a homosexual website, you leave it at home (I don't necessarily like this situation, but I needed a positive to work with). And if you find that "Nu-nu" helps you with your day and your life, leave it at home.

Atheists shouldn't be telling pts about how wrathful and judgemental their pts' Gods are. Pts and their families may not appreciate that. And this goes the other way for everyone else.

I live in Canada where I attend to pts of all faiths. Canada is not the melting pot that the US is, remember. So regardless of my beliefs, I must attend with an open mind and a respect for the pts beliefs. There are numerous different cultures and faiths around me. I can do my job way better without clashing over faith, without all the disrespect of assuming my beliefs are better than someone else's.

And I have to point out, that starting your point with "As a christian" asserts that this is an option or point of view that works for you. It is not a solid, recognizable fact, backed up with empirical evidence. Try working around people of another celebrated faith and then explain to me how your faith is going to help them.

I hate to disagree with you Rid, but I do not believe that EMS is backwards for not teaching religion with EMS. My school discussed this matter and felt that we should be respectful and use good judgement and to remember that this is our work, not our personal space. It always works well when pts share our faiths, but that is not always what we will encounter, ie) the Jehoviah's Witnesses, and we have to keep a clear and focused mindset free from bias and persecution.

I feel that my school was progressive for making us more aware that it is a bus with limited seating, so we shouldn't go belting God into the captain's seat everytime. And the Universities here do not teach our RNs how to integrate religion into their work environment, as no program does (except maybe Computer Science: "Oh God, I hope this works this time!"). Even Religious Studies has an informal faith structure behind it.

Whatever we believe and use to draw our strengths from is great for each of us. But it is not the almighty that does our job, so I too recommend leaving it at home.

 

[Onceamedic]

I was raised in Canada, which is a much more secular society than this part of the US where I live now. When in Canada, I certainly did not attend church with anywhere the degree of regularity that I do now. I also did not find myself using the buzzwords of Christianity with the frequency I do now. I have adapted my outward behaviour to conform toward the norm that I live in. We all do. That is a hallmark of human nature - our adaptability. However, these customs and attitudes have not changed my funadamental nature as a person. I am still fiscally conservative, personally liberal, comfortable with uncertainty, open to change, etc. etc. etc. At the end of the day, it boils down to how you treat your fellow man and how you do your job. The rest is window dressing.

God bless you all. ;-)

 

[TKO]

I want to emphasize that I am only in disagreement, not that I feel what others believe is cut and dry wrong. No disrespect is intended.

 

[Ridryder911]

As for Rid's "Guru" conclusion that there is no benefit in CISD, Well he is just full of BS, We have had some fantastic results from CISD's.

Don't argue with me, it is only the scientific facts! I suggest you read the current trends. That is why Federal funding and support has been eliminated for CISD, it is considered psycho-babble and actually has been documented to possibly cause more harm than good. Are you really sure that it had great results? Since PTSD, usually occurs years later, as well what type of research results did you compare this to or was this all ancedotal findings?

R/r911

 

[emtwannabe]

And I have to point out, that starting your point with "As a christian" asserts that this is an option or point of view that works for you. It is not a solid, recognizable fact, backed up with empirical evidence. Try working around people of another celebrated faith and then explain to me how your faith is going to help them.

Real easy......

1. Faith is NOT based on empirical evidence. It is a belief in things not seen, things not of a tangible nature. It is a form of trust. Not unlike the trust our patients have in our abilities to do our jobs to the absolute best of our abilities. Are you saying then we should not be able to practice because our patients do not have faith in our abilities? Of course not. When someone dials 911, they have faith that someone will take care of them or their loved one.

You have to understand that there is a HUGE difference between religion and faith. When I get up every morning and report to work, I put faith in my God to see me safely through the day. I pray silently throughout my day that as I see people, they see me not as a Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, or any of the major organized religions, but simply as a follower of Christ. I am not here to wave my "faith flag", or to force people to join the tribe, so to speak. It is for my comfort and my consciousness alone, unless SOMEBODY ASKS. I will never deny a patient fellowship if they ask. But they have to initiate the conversation.

I believe that people of different faiths can get along by showing tolerance. If you read the bible, this is what we as believers are told to do. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. And that is why I got into EMS. To help my neighbor.

**disclaimer** Not trying to inflame, but clarify my point. If I offend....well....remember.....Tolerance..It takes 2 for a dialogue, but only one to argue.

 

[TKO]

You have not offended me. I never actually brought what my belief is to this roundtable.

And I absolutely know the difference between faith and religion. If this were a discussion of organized religion's place in healthcare, I suspect there were be fewer people arguing for it and a lot more offensives to pass around.

 

[Summit]

I think Luno put it best... it is what reasonably comforts the patient. If you have problem with that, then you are in the wrong field.

You don't have to approve of your patients beliefs, but you do have to be professional. I can think Jehovas Witnesses are morons all I want so long as it doesn't interfere with my professionalism.

As for Rid's "Guru" conclusion that there is no benefit in CISD, Well he is just full of BS, We have had some fantastic results from CISD's.

Anecdotal success does not a successfull technique make...

read the studies and get with the program

 

[firecoins]

Religion in the workplace is fine as long as I can be an open aethist. If you can bring up your religion, Ill bring up mine.

 

[Gbro]

Don't argue with me, it is only the scientific facts! I suggest you read the current trends. That is why Federal funding and support has been eliminated for CISD, it is considered psycho-babble and actually has been documented to possibly cause more harm than good. Are you really sure that it had great results? Since PTSD, usually occurs years later, as well what type of research results did you compare this to or was this all ancedotal findings?

R/r911

That is about the most arrogant statement i have ever heard, "Don't argue with me" the only one that ever got away with that statement was my loving Mother.

I'll just sum up where you are obviously coming from, "I'll just consider the source"
furthermore, the basics of CISD are to talk it out, not bottle up what one might not fully understand, and if you think that doesn't work, ,,,

Why i will pray for you.

 

[emtwannabe]

Point of clarification-Is atheism a religion? No, it is not, because it's principal beliefs are that there is NO god or supreme being. It is a way of life, but not a religion.

A religion, by definition, is a belief in a higher power or deity.

Again, not inflaming, just clarifying.

And by all means, please share your views on atheism. I would certainly enjoy learning another person's perspective on how the world operates.

 

[TKO]

I never said I was atheist.

To clarify, atheism is a system of beliefs. They have the faith that there is no God or higher Creator. It is not a lack of faith.

And the definition of religion is an organization of followers of a faith. It is not the faith itself.
Organized Religion is the bureaucratic and economic organization of this organization of followers of a faith.
Faith is a belief in an idea(s).
Knowing is awareness and comprehension of the facts.


I like to think that I provide tremendous pt support but I don't have to find a topic of common faith to do so. I can get the pt to tell me about their family or whatever without a discussion on faith while I attend to them. Sometimes when they are very upset and I'm between vitals, I'll just hold their hand. Really, the topic of faith in the back of the bus has never been an issue for me. Perhaps because I never bring it up?

 

[Onceamedic]

Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many belief systems which most agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, suggesting that just about any and everything is a religion.

A good example of a narrow definition is the common attempt to define “religion” as “belief in God,” effectively excluding polytheistic religions and atheistic religions while including theists who have no religious belief system. A good example of a vague definition is the tendency to define religion as “worldview” — but how can every worldview qualify as a religion?

Some have argued that religion isn’t hard to define and the plethora of conflicting definitions is evidence of how easy it really is. The problem lies in finding a definition that is empirically useful and empirically testable. So far, the best definition of religion I have seen is in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It lists traits of religions rather than declaring religion to be one thing or another, arguing that the more markers present in a belief system, the more”religious like” it is:

Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.
Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
A social group bound together by the above.
This definition captures much of what religion is across diverse cultures. It includes sociological, psychological, and historical factors and allows for broader gray areas in the concept of religion. It’s not without flaws, though. The first marker, for example, is about “supernatural beings” and gives “gods” as an example, but thereafter only gods are mentioned. Even the concept of “supernatural beings” is a bit too specific; Mircea Eliade defined religion in reference to a focus on “the sacred” and that is a good replacement for “supernatural beings” because not every religion revolves around the supernatural.



A better definition is:

Belief in something sacred (for example, gods or other supernatural beings).
A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
A moral code believed to have a sacred or supernatural basis.
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual.
Prayer and other forms of communication with the supernatural.
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
A social group bound together by the above.
This is the definition of religion used here. It describes religious systems but not non-religious systems. It encompasses the features common in belief systems generally acknowledged as religions without focusing on specific characteristics unique to just a few.

From Austin Cline,
Your Guide to Agnosticism / Atheism.


I personally tend to agree with the definition of religion as a world view, thus the question of whether or not I bring it into the job becomes moot.

 

[BossyCow]

We bring ourselves to our jobs, whether we personally practice a 'system of belief' or are members of 'a religion', 'practice spirituality', or whatever. Who we are and what makes us able to get through our days is what we bring to our jobs, our interpersonal relationships, and everything else that we do. To suggest that any part of who we are and how we define ourselves doesn't impact our patient care is silly.

One of our old volunteers was the local pastor and I know when he and I were running a code with no ALS available and only the two of us in the ambulance (more than a few times) God was in that ambulance. Whether as a manifestation of the preacher's will/imagination/faith or what...doesn't matter how to me. Of course, it wasn't enough to get me to show up in his chapel on Sundays.

 

[firecoins]

One of our old volunteers was the local pastor and I know when he and I were running a code with no ALS available and only the two of us in the ambulance (more than a few times) God was in that ambulance. Whether as a manifestation of the preacher's will/imagination/faith or what...doesn't matter how to me. Of course, it wasn't enough to get me to show up in his chapel on Sundays.

Okay. Ill bite. I can't help myself. This a question of curiosity. How was God in the ambulance with you? In what way? Any answer you give is correct...or incorrect by my beliefs. So just remove any argumentiveness you may take from my asking.