EMT #1 Surprising Minimum-Wage Job

Foxbat said:
I don't know. On this forum "go straight to medic school" POV seems to be prevalent, but most medics I know recommend otherwise. Perhaps it depends on location.
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According to my Instructor, who is a Paramedic and a Fireman, he recommends that you work as an EMT-B for about a year before going to Paramedic School.

I believe his reasoning for this is:

1) To make sure this is the career choice you thought it would be and is it for you.

and

2) To gain a good amount of experience to help with your further training as a Paramedic.

I would like to reiterate that this is his opinion/recommendation and not a fact or rule/regulation.

In my state, Massachusetts, you can go straight to Paramedic School as soon as you are certified as an EMT-B.

In my region, the EMT-I are not really recognized, so it's EMT-B to Paramedic.
 
What, exactly, does him being a fire fighter have anything to do about his reccomendation about your prehospital medical education? It's like a physician suggesting schooling to a plumber.
 
Guardian Angel said:
According to my Instructor, who is a Paramedic and a Fireman, he recommends that you work as an EMT-B for about a year before going to Paramedic School.

I believe his reasoning for this is:

1) To make sure this is the career choice you thought it would be and is it for you.

and

2) To gain a good amount of experience to help with your further training as a Paramedic.

I would like to reiterate that this is his opinion/recommendation and not a fact or rule/regulation.

In my state, Massachusetts, you can go straight to Paramedic School as soon as you are certified as an EMT-B.

In my region, the EMT-I are not really recognized, so it's EMT-B to Paramedic.
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Just ask yourself if this is the best way why do Doctors just become doctors rather than having a required short training and try a year then continue?

They don't. They get the education then treat the patients. that is the way EMS should be.
 
Guardian Angel said:
According to my Instructor, who is a Paramedic and a Fireman, he recommends that you work as an EMT-B for about a year before going to Paramedic School.
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Foxbat said:
I do not want to debate this topic, but I don't want Guardian Angel to have an impression that this is every employer's point of view. My EMS chief (paid paramedic), for example, would rather have somebody who had EMT experience before medic school; and the university where I will go for paramedic program (if I do) recommends prior experience as an EMT.
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Did any of these Paramedic programs require at least a year of prerequisites? That includes the university program which can also be of medic mill quality to stay competitive and attract candidates who want to be FFs or the FD may even contract with them to get more medics out faster. Thus, these programs may "substitute" experience for education and that brings us to the mess EMS is in today. This method isn't working and thus the need for discussions such as this. Schools and some instructors want the Paramedic to remain a "tech" instead of becoming a health care professsional. EMS continues making the same mistakes over and over again in the way it fosters its young. There are also too few educated instructors out there to mentor those for a path of education and just want a "pass" number for their schools. Also, those with an education prior to entering a Paramedic program might actually question an instructor when they start teaching how "lido numbs the heart" or "CPAP pushes lung water" and would like to know "why" they are being taught crap.

If any of these schools required a degree or if the instructors themselves had an education, they would explain taking a year of prerquisites while working before going into Paramedic school. One should not just work as an EMT with the very little knowledge, training and medical knowledge the EMT-B provides. This is why we get EMTs and Paramedics using the terms "BS calls" or dumbing down dialysis runs because they have no clue about medical issues and disease processes because they were taught primarily first-aid. Thus, working one year doing something you were not taught to do and very little first-aid is not advancing the profession. If one spent the time productively continuing their education learning about disease processes and exactly what parts of the body they are looking at, working as an EMT would make much more sense.
 
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Wages

Problem with wages are that most people work for NON-County or City services.

Working for a private company usually mean lower wages, close to no pension if any, and NO federal funding.

I think there should be Federal Funding avail to private services and grant programs geared towards private companies. I have worked on the Volunteer side, Private and Country run aganecies and it is suprising that there is no consistancy from Local, State and Federal assistance across the board.

But you also have to remember EMS is young....it really got started in the late 60's to be recognized as a profession...post 9/11 we did get a boost but we are NOT like the Police and Fire Services that have been around since the 1800's

It will take an act from Congress to change the Federal Funding and unfortunatly more professionalism from many of our own people to educate the public that we are not just ambulance drivers.

Unfortunetly the TV shows really hurt our careers also...we are usually depicted as slobs that drink on the job and speed through red lights to get lunch.

IDK...money and EMS will always be an issue just for the fact that insurance agencies/medicare pretty much dictate our industry payouts/paybacks.

those are my thought....
 
Medic One said:
But you also have to remember EMS is young....it really got started in the late 60's to be recognized as a profession...post 9/11 we did get a boost but we are NOT like the Police and Fire Services that have been around since the 1800's
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Young? EMS is now one of the oldest allied health professions in a college catalog. 40+ years! Almost half a century! This is no longer a valid excuse.

But of course when those in EMS can not identify EMS as a healthcare profession, there is a big problem. Its identity should not be compared with the FD or PD. When those in EMS do not consider themselves as healthcare professionals then there is no way this profession will ever advance.

Also, almost any EMS instructor will tell you that the post 9/11 period was not the best for EMS either. The schools filled quickly with those who only wanted to be a hero to get a parade and not a health care professional. Even the FDs saw a down turn in the quality of candidates they were attracting.

It will take an act from Congress to change the Federal Funding and unfortunatly more professionalism from many of our own people to educate the public that we are not just ambulance drivers.
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IDK...money and EMS will always be an issue just for the fact that insurance agencies/medicare pretty much dictate our industry payouts/paybacks.
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If you had read any of my posts you would know some of the process it takes to be recognized as a profession which includes recognition in Washington DC where much of the insurance and funding legislation orignates. Those in Congress will also only declare professional status to a profession that knows who and what it is. EMS has over 50 different certs in the 50 different certs with many inconsistencies in education and training requirements. How can a profession that makes claim to a 120 hour cert for EMT and a 3 month wonder for Paramedic be taken seriously when no other health care profession has such low and inconsistent standards? EMS is going to have to decide whether it wants to be paid higher wages because it is a yuck job like garbage collection or as a medical professional.
 
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JPINFV said:
What, exactly, does him being a fire fighter have anything to do about his reccomendation about your prehospital medical education? It's like a physician suggesting schooling to a plumber.
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90% of firefighters are also either EMT's or Paramedics.
 
subliminal1284 said:
90% of firefighters are also either EMT's or Paramedics.
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But 89% of that 90% became EMTs and Paramedics to get a FD Job and not to be known as a medical professional. Most will still identify themselves solely as a FF. Again, the low standards for education and training make this possible. We have long lines of over 1000 applicants when a FD opening is announced. One can bet over 900 of them will already have their Paramedic cert. Those that don't get hired may go back to flipping burgers, with their Paramedic patch, at Burger King rather than get a job at a hospital or on an ambulance until the next year when the FD has another hire date for a handful of openings. As well, if you are not certified as a Paramedic when hired, the FD may make you attend the medic mill of their choice for a quick and easy how to pass the state test course.

I'm not saying all FDs are like this and back when I was hired as a FF, they actually advocated the 2 year degree for the Paramedic. Those days are now gone for many of FDs participating in EMS today unfortunately.

A little trivia: last year when Oakland FD dropped its EMT cert requirement for FF applicants, they got over 10,000 applicants standing in line for 20 open positions.
 
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Sasha said:
I'm wondering where you people are getting your statistics??
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If one was to look at the FDs in Florida, 90% of the FFs are Paramedics and that data is usually published on their websites.

When FD applications are reviewed, and I do wish this data was published, many of those holding a Paramedic cert have not worked as a Paramedic. Some have had EMT experience but refused to work BLS trucks while waiting for a FD opening.

I did recently post Florida's data for Paramedic and EMT satisfaction from last year's survey and the majority of those responding were with the FDs.

Also, the stats for Oakland, CA when the number of applicants jumped 10 fold at least by just dropping the EMT cert is significant.

You would also be surprised at the increase in number of applicants a Flight team gets if it omits some education requirements in its job description. It seems some just wait for the standards to be lowered rather than tring to boost their resume with educational qualifications.
 
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Sasha said:
I'm wondering where you people are getting your statistics??
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Well sweet little innocent Sashisha 94.9784523% of the time they are just wild guesses.
 
75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
 
JPINFV said:
75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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Not quite right only 73.48295% are. Then another 20.683541% are delayed. Leaving about 5% being based on facts. ;)
 
It seems some just wait for the standards to be lowered rather than tring to boost their resume with educational qualifications.
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Or perhaps they were in the process of boosting their educational qualifications, which is not something done quickly overnight, but seized the opprotunity when it became obtainable, even if it's through lowered standards?

It's a stretch, but it could happen.

I was referring more to your statistic that 89% of the FF/EMT/Medics were motivated to become an EMT/Paramedic to secure a fire job. Sounds like something you pulled out of your bum, especially considering to make any sort of living as an EMT or Paramedic here you either get on with one of the two services that actually pay a liveable wage but are rarely hiring, or become a fire fighter and work at a station.
 
Sasha said:
Or perhaps they were in the process of boosting their educational qualifications, which is not something done quickly overnight, but seized the opprotunity when it became obtainable, even if it's through lowered standards?

It's a stretch, but it could happen.
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You would have to have sat in on the interviews to have known their motivation or lack of.

Sasha said:
I was referring more to your statistic that 89% of the FF/EMT/Medics were motivated to become an EMT/Paramedic to secure a fire job. Sounds like something you pulled out of your bum, especially considering to make any sort of living as an EMT or Paramedic here you either get on with one of the two services that actually pay a liveable wage but are rarely hiring, or become a fire fighter and work at a station.
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As I stated in my post, I was referring to the last few FD hiring processes here in South Florida. The applicants had Paramedic certs but did not work as Paramedics even though some held the cert for several years. And, did you see the survey I referenced in another thread that was done in 2008 in Florida?
 
VentMedic said:
Since you are a union person this might be difficult to discuss with you. Unions do NOT promote a profession. A good insurance plan might provide peace of mind but it doesn't do much for you as a profesional Paramedic. My father was union while working the mines and had great insurance/paid etc but most of his co-workers barely had an eighth grade education. (Although I will say their first-aid education was by far superior to anything in the EMT-B courses today and it was just part of the job.)

It is the professional associations that have rallied for better professional recognition and reimbursement. They are also the ones who provide the data to hospitals when RTs, PTs and SLPs want a raise. Those unlucky enough to be covered by a union must wait for the contract to renegotiate. If RTs get their desired bills for higher education and reimbursement passed tomorrow, they will start working on implementing it instead of waiting 3 years for another contract to add an additional level.

Examples:

RT
http://www.aarc.org/

Advocacy
http://www.aarc.org/advocacy/

PT
http://www.apta.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

Advocacy
http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...ggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=181&ContentID=57962

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...aggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=57&ContentID=12727

NP

http://www.aanp.org/AANPCMS2

PA

http://www.aapa.org/

OT

http://www.aota.org/

Radiology
https://www.asrt.org/

The things that all of these associations have in common:

* Their membership is promoted from the beginning of education by a student membership either included in tuition or offered at the dicount price.

* Employers may also offer membership as a "perk" or expect one the have it.

* Each state has a chapter and often with local chapters.

* People are members regardless of their union status and they do NOT mix up what each can do and what the association can do when it comes to worth or value.

* Hospitals take pride in sponsoring someone to run for a position within the association at whatever level.

* Gives opportunities for research to be presented with grants available.

* The research can also be used to show proof of worth when it comes to reimbursement. "See, what we do works".


I was a Paramedic long before I became as RT. During the 1970s Florida was a leader in 2 year college programs for the Paramedic and they were encouraged even by the FDs. Nursing was a late bloomer and was just getting around to establishing the 2 year degree and telling the diploma programs to join forces with a college for some classes. At that time it was actually thought that the Paramedic would become a leader and example amongst the health care professions. RT was still OJT or a 1 year cert program. Radiology Technicians were sailing in the same boat as Respiratory. PT was just solidifying their Bachelors programs and looking towards a Masters in the future. SLP was still and infant. But along came this profession that has gotten a boost from a TV show and was the pearl of everyone's eyes including the public.

But, along came greed and since the education foundation was not fully laid out, medic mills sprung up in the FDs and ambulance services. Everyone wanted to become part of this cool profession and FDs/ambulance owners saw they could capitalize on an abundance of labor with ease of entry. It was also when the 3 month medic grads came about who had little interest in medicine that the Paramedics like myself with a degree starting looking where we could grow as medical professionals.

I also find the thread "how many have done this" rather amusing as the early Paramedics (includes Rid, myself and a few others here) did a lot more invasive procedures and were considered good at them or were at least well prepared by our education and training. There was also a different relationship with trust from the medical directors at that time. Now it seems the attitude is "here's some generic protocols and try not to kill anyone". The other thing about better educated Paramedics and other professionals is that when an "advanced skill" or some medication is no longer advocated because of evidence based findings, they don't whine "they took away our MAST" and consider it a punishment. They look at what is in the literature that works better.

Watching other professions that have only been licensed for 20 years or less just sprint past the Paramedic has been disheartening. But, they learned from the mistakes nursing made and when they were challenged by nursing, they enlisted them as partners in healthcare rather than the enemy. When you only have a few thousand members and they have probably a million, you form a better plan of action.
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No, I understand. I'm for unions because they give the best chance for the best benefits for the industry as it stands at the moment. The vast majority of EMS employers offer as little as they can as long as they are able to maintain an applicant pool. Giving our current state of education, I believe that unions in their purest form give employees the best possible deal. I also understand your points as to how unions, particularly FD unions have generally held back the profession for the reasons you've posted throughout this forum. I won't deny that.

In my case I didn't have years or decades to work for and wait for positive change. I strongly believe that a defined benefit retirement is of prime importance. I've long had a passing interest in the fire service, though not as much as EMS. Several co-workers from NSLIJ-CEMS went down to Fairfax before me. They told me about the pay/bennies/retirement, work schedule, job satisfaction, etc. Then they told me how well EMS was run, and how much time/resources they put into EMS to ensure that it runs well and continues to improve. They also told me how the attitude toward EMS is better than most FD's. There's also a whole EMS ladder up to BC, and an all hazards track at all levels as well. Sold!

I've seen what increased requirements (not education, but general proficiency/knowledge) have done for an EMS agency. NSLIJ has a purposefully difficult entrance exam, and has an internship process lasting several months, which is quite strict. Their IFT division is progressive with liberal protocols. Medics are trusted to run the majority of PICU txp's without a team, or maybe with an RT or RN only. Ballon pump jobs are double medic only, as are vented sedated neurosurgical transfers, among other situations. Education is reimbursed, and career development/ advancement to other areas of the health system is encouraged. The pay is excellent for the region, as are the benefits. No pension though, that was the deal breaker for me. I feel that strongly about pensions.

NSLIJ has strict codes of conduct, and does not tolerate ignorance in regards to medical knowledge in regards to level of cert. If you did a medic mill, their exams and internship process will weed you out in a hurry. QA/QI is on point as well. They also run a quality NYC 911 division, which helps with medic proficiency, even though it typically runs in the red. The health system has no problem hiring quality personnel. Supervisors will be quick to tell you, "We hold you to a higher standard because we pay so well". Okay, the conditions aren't because of a formal increase in education, but NSLIJ employees are held to a high standard, justified by the pay/benefits/scope, etc. No union, either.

I understand how increased education can justify higher reimbursements, which in turn allow better packages for the employee along with organization (oversimplification, but that's the gist of it). I hope it does, as it will help both for increased competition, bringing legitimate, proficient providers into the fire service, and will result in any per diem ventures being rewarding in regards to both job satisfaction and compansation.
 
Funny even those with unions are paid like crap plus out money every month for nothing.
 
medic417 said:
Funny even those with unions are paid like crap plus out money every month for nothing.
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Which locals are you referring to in particular?
 
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