Education levels

[Ridryder911]

Many states?

Oregon and Kansas (forgot that one for the MICT) are just two.

Texas offers a license for degreed but it is not required.

What other states?

I will have to look it up, but at the NREMT meeting I believe we came up with at least 5 or 7 with some others that are in the process and allowing time before mandation.

R/r 911

 

[VentMedic]

I will have to look it up, but at the NREMT meeting I believe we came up with at least 5 or 7 with some others that are in the process and allowing time before mandation.

R/r 911

Florida has been in the "process" since 1978 but that doesn't mean it will happen anytime soon. Others also made proposals to change around 1999 when OR did but few followed through. NM is another but again, anyone can summit a proposal, it just depends on how far it travels or not.

Florida and California are probably positioned better then any of the states in terms of EMS degrees already present in the colleges but I doubt if either will make the move toward it being a requirement anytime soon. TN had the almost all of their Paramedic programs in Colleges but have now started to allow a FDs do their own training. A few other states have also started to allow more programs again in the FDs. Granted the motive might be to mass produce before the NREMT accreditatoin requirements. Many of the other states would first have to petition for increased education funds which may be a stretch after meeting the standards for accreditation. Becoming accredited and offering a degree still has a gap between them.

I would love to see it happen but I've been waiting since 1978 when I read the memo to get a degree because that was the future of EMS. Thirty years later, I'm still waiting for the future but I have my degree.

 

[UKEMT]

I will admit i can't comment on your levels of training in the USA as im still looking into it but i can give you a comparison to what the training levels are required over here in the UK.

Until recently (about 1 year ago) 90% of the training up to the level of Paramedic was done via in house training and certified by the Institute of Health Care Development (IHCD), one year ago they developed a foundation degree program (3 years in length with one year dedicated gap working for a ambulance trust) which is a direct entry level qualification to become a state registered Paramedic whith the Health professions council (HPC) as it is now classed as a professional title and therefore is required to have regular checks of all personnel registered to practice as a Paramedic.

The link below is to a current job spec for the london ambluance service showing the in hoiuse training level and has further links to various universities whom offer the degree program.

This is the way things are going over here with regard to becomming a Paramedic as they are overhauling the service to provide better responce and patient care by ensuring that all category-1 calls are responded to by Paramedics.

http://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/w...ancies/ambulance_staff/student_paramedic.aspx

This is just in contrast to what i have gleaned from your various educational requirements.

 

[xlq771]

How exactly would a 4 year paramedic program be organized? Would it be organized along the same lines as the Bachleor degree program offered by Centennial College/University of Toronto, where the student only graduates as a Primary Care Paramedic / BLS level, or would the program be similar to the Bachleor degree program offered at Medicine Hat College, Alberta, where the student graduates as a Advanced Care Paramedic / ALS level?

As for an EMT/PCP/BLS program, I would like to see the same number of course hours of a 2 year program put into a 1 year program. I don't know about other areas, but the college programs at my area community college apparently don't spend enough hours in class, since they repeatedly trash the streets around the college during every drunken party. A few years ago they even had a homicide (a student was stabbed). Maybee if they were forced to spend more hours in their studies, they wouldn't wreck the neibourhood.

 

[45ACP]

I agree with DV EMT. I have a real problem with paying 500 to 1000 bucks to take English 101/102 in University. If someone is not "literate" as someone mentioned by 18 years of age then they might need those courses, but for me it is and incredible waste of money and time.

A semester three months of time and all you get is three credits and a book report on Shakespeare AGAIN

We DO have a big problen IMO with our current state of Education. IMO most General Studies should be done in High School. Time would better be spent after High School learning the actual skills you need to do your job well and make a living.

Understand Universities are in the Bussiness of Making money and if they can waste 50% of your time on getting a "Well Rounded" education they will darn well be happy to.

 

[Ridryder911]

I agree with DV EMT. I have a real problem with paying 500 to 1000 bucks to take English 101/102 in University. If someone is not "literate" as someone mentioned by 18 years of age then they might need those courses, but for me it is and incredible waste of money and time.

A semester three months of time and all you get is three credits and a book report on Shakespeare AGAIN

We DO have a big problen IMO with our current state of Education. IMO most General Studies should be done in High School. Time would better be spent after High School learning the actual skills you need to do your job well and make a living.

Understand Universities are in the Bussiness of Making money and if they can waste 50% of your time on getting a "Well Rounded" education they will darn well be happy to.

Apparently, you have not taken English 101 as it is not about Shakespeare as it is about the usage of English grammar, writing skills and composition and even spelling (hint..).

We have way too many of those that attend Career Technology or Vocational Technical Schools then attempt to be in medicine. In reality, there is far more in life than the "skills" one would learn in a blue collar trade school. Training and becoming educated is two different modalities.

If one wants to pursue being a professional, then one needs to learn and grow academically as well. Way too much emphasis is placed upon "just knowing the essentials". Part of the problem with industries and the work force within the U.S. EMS is much more than just skills and what is contained within one book training. Hence, the reason EMS needs to get OUT of training and instead become educated.

Sorry, just ask a typical Paramedic to write a formal or technical letter then tell me how those within it does not need additional education.

Let's not water it down anymore than it is. Again, if one wants to be a professional with all the benefits, then one has to go the same pathway of other professionals. There is a reason one does this approach.

R/r 911

 

[VFFforpeople]

I agree EMTs need more than just 150 hours (120 in cali). I think it should be done 3 times a week 4hours a night for a full semester. That would be a good about of training I think. Maybe even 4-5 days a week and hours. Two year degree for it I think would be a little much. Plus you won't see a pay raise in it for your time.

I dont know much for Medic so I won't go to deep into it. I know here in Cali, in my area it is 5days a week 9-10 hours a day, plus weekends at 9hours plus clinical hours. and you are about 10 credits short of a 2yr degree. It is a lot to take on in a 1year but if will show you if you really want it. Even if you pass the class for Medic, the teacher can still fail you from taking NREMT. That all I know from my area.

Rider I was wondering if you could elaberate more on your meaning of blue collar because I may have misread it or didn't understand it the way you meant it to be said. I don't want to go off and sound like and idiot.

 

[Aidey]

Rid, what do you consider to be equal professions? Saying one has to go the same pathway as other professions is too general considered there a huge difference in education between different types of professions.

 

[VentMedic]

I dont know much for Medic so I won't go to deep into it. I know here in Cali, in my area it is 5days a week 9-10 hours a day, plus weekends at 9hours plus clinical hours. and you are about 10 credits short of a 2yr degree. It is a lot to take on in a 1year but if will show you if you really want it. Even if you pass the class for Medic, the teacher can still fail you from taking NREMT. That all I know from my area.

Where?

California still only requires just over 1000 hours to be a Paramedic. While there are programs as you describe, most run just for a short period of time to get one through those 1000 hours quicker and on a truck. These schools are also usually associated with a private ambulance service or FD. Even the college programs stretch their courses out and many no longer rerquire the standard college A&P and sciences that are required for other health degrees.

The only thing I will say about California is that it requires all of its Paramedic programs to be CAAHEP/CoAEMSP accredited. Other than that, I would be hard pressed to use California as an example of excellence when it comes to Paramedic education. I believe their state's (and counties) scope of practice reflect that.

 

[VentMedic]

Rid, what do you consider to be equal professions? Saying one has to go the same pathway as other professions is too general considered there a huge difference in education between different types of professions.

If you look at almost any college catelog you will see that just about every healthcare pathway starts with the same initial sciences, maths and English classes as well as Psychology, Sociology and statistics before they are even allowed to apply for their program. Unfortunately the college degrees for Paramedics are accepting the watered down version of A&P while the tech schools require very little for prerequisites except the ability to sign the loan check over to the school.

 

[Aidey]

That wasn't really what I was asking Vent.

 

[VFFforpeople]

Where?

California still only requires just over 1000 hours to be a Paramedic. While there are programs as you describe, most run just for a short period of time to get one through those 1000 hours quicker and on a truck. These schools are also usually associated with a private ambulance service or FD. Even the college programs stretch their courses out and many no longer rerquire the standard college A&P and sciences that are required for other health degrees.

The only thing I will say about California is that it requires all of its Paramedic programs to be CAAHEP/CoAEMSP accredited. Other than that, I would be hard pressed to use California as an example of excellence when it comes to Paramedic education. I believe their state's (and counties) scope of practice reflect that.

Like I said I don't know much on the ALS side of Cali. What I can say is that both Northern California colleges up here require A&P. Also, as for a standard I think we do well against other states and hold our own. Each county has its own rules it must follow, it is never the same where you go. Up here in the real Nor Cal, it is difficult to just "Jump" on a truck. I would ask have you ever been to Cali? or live or worked here?

 

[Sapphyre]

I would ask have you ever been to Cali? or live or worked here?

Oh,VFF, you just stuck your foot in your mouth. Vent spends quite a bit of time in the Bay Area.

BTW, she's right about the state of EMS in California.


:this post brought to you by a BLS 911 rig, sitting in a random parking lot, in the land of Johnny and Roy:

 

[Ridryder911]

Rid, what do you consider to be equal professions? Saying one has to go the same pathway as other professions is too general considered there a huge difference in education between different types of professions.

Easy. Look at any other medical profession i.e. respiratory therapy, nursing, physical therapy, occupational therapy, medical school. Again, referring to what our main and only goal should be .. medical.

Blue collar type work is based upon skills not education. Training is emphasized rather than educational pathway. For example factory workers or those that require direct supervision and performance is based upon their physical activity. Hypothetical or analyses thinking is not required. Even Fire Services is considered to be blue collar. As their primary job is under supervision, physical activity is their primary role in lieu of making hypothetical decision making. Unfortunately, many attempt to place EMS within this type of performance; as placing skills as the main emphasis of our performance, when in reality if done properly would recognize the skills are just secondary.

EMS is a division of Emergency Medicine which is science. We need to quit diversifying it as it becomes something else or looses its main focus and intent.

R/r 911

 

[VentMedic]

It is technical training when your program and state scope of practice reads like a check off list. Other professions will have statements like "skills and medication related but not limited to the cardiopulomonay systems" as an open ended scope. It would be difficult to even begin to list the many "skills" an RN, RRT or any other healthcare professional can provide as well as the interventions that their medical directors can put into their protocols. Again, it is largely derived from education. If you have the knowledge, a "skill" is not too difficult to learn especially if you already know the reasons to why that skill is being done to that patient.

Example of California's "list" for Paramedic: (When listed out, it is really not that impressive and definitely not when you get to what CA considers "CCT" for the Paramedic. But, that is why they have MICNs.)

This is also a combined list for all 3 levels.

http://www.emsa.ca.gov/personnel/files/emt/ems_prog.pdf

Patient assessment​

Advanced first aid​

Use of adjunctive
breathing aid &​

administration of
oxygen​

Automated External
Defibrillator​

Cardiopulmonary
resuscitation​

Transportation of ill
& injured persons​

EKG monitoring
Defibrillation &
Cardioversion​

Antishock trousers​

Intravenous infusion​

Esophageal airway​

Obtain venous blood​

9 medications (scope of
practice varies by area)​

Laryngoscope​

Endotracheal (ET)​

intubation (adults, oral)​

Glucose measuring​

Valsalva=s Maneuver​

Needle thoracostomy​

and cricothyroidotomy​

Nasogastric intubatio​

(adult)​

· 21 medications​

 

[DV_EMT]

yeah... here in the big CA, every county has their own rules... which keeps us on our toes. unfortunately, Sb county has really tightened up on their EMT-B's. o2 and po glucose are the only allowable medications to be dosed. forget about aspirin, nitro, activated charcoal, or epipen. i'd like to see what LA county's rules are

 

[JPINFV]

^
Still more than Orange County.

Now quick question. In the past year, how many times did you have a patient where you would have administered an epipen, charcoal, ASA, or nitro?

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Just one question:

WHO WOULD ACTUALLY VOTE THAT WE DON'T NEED TO IMPROVE THE PROFESSION? You know who you two are and so do we.

Anyone that sees the way EMS is organized (or disorganized sometimes) and the inconsistancies in training/scope realizes that there is much to be done to improve our profession. On a personal level, every medical provider MUST continue to expound on their knowledge and improve their skills. Anyone that doesn't agree is not someone I would wnat treating a family member. Anyone who is content to keep the profession and their personal education where it is ned top leave medicine and get a nice fast food gig... the pay is probably better anyway.

P.S. Yes California sucks in the way we have EMS set up. Anyone that has worked out here knows it and if they denies it and is content with the way California EMSA operates needs to likewise get out of EMS or take a trip to a state/country where things are done right (I could make you a list, but just fingure through an atlas.)

 

[Aidey]

Rid I think you missed the intent of my question. I'm not talking about equal medical professions, I'm talking about equal professions period. Maybe using level of autonomy and responsibility as comparison factors.

If you had to pick one medical profession you think paramedic is most equal to which one would it be? I ask you to pick one because you listed medical school, but there is no way being a doctor is equal to being a paramedic. Saying that the education requirements for paramedics and EMTs should be increased because the education requirements for doctors are so much higher is kind of like saying that the education for flight attendants should be increased because the education requirements for pilots is so much higher.

 

[45ACP]

Ridryder911
Apparently, you have not taken English 101 as it is not about Shakespeare as it is about the usage of English grammar, writing skills and composition and even spelling (hint..).

Apparently you only have a grasp on sarcasm when it comes to your own posts. I was making the point that Composition, Literature etc. all have there place certainly, but I am of the opinion that reviewing these in university are simply a way for the college to make more money, waste the students time, and set the student further back into debt. None of which, pertain to learning medicine.

We have way too many of those that attend Career Technology or Vocational Technical Schools then attempt to be in medicine. In reality, there is far more in life than the "skills" one would learn in a blue collar trade school. Training and becoming educated is two different modalities.

What is wrong with people going to a career technology field to be a CNA or other equivalent? If they choose to become something demanding a greater degree of education they will have to obviously meet the same standards anyone else would.

If one wants to pursue being a professional, then one needs to learn and grow academically as well. Way too much emphasis is placed upon "just knowing the essentials". Part of the problem with industries and the work force within the U.S. EMS is much more than just skills and what is contained within one book training. Hence, the reason EMS needs to get OUT of training and instead become educated.

I agree with what you've said here. I just don't see why the other "book" should be "Thus Spoke Zarathustra". If people want to make themselves more worldly that's great! I support and encourage that. What I am saying is that the time could be spent delving deeper into medicine or whatever it is that one is studying in pursuit of a career. I am not suggesting that one book be utilized at all. I am saying that in the same amount of time, & for the same amount of resources ones knowledge of their respective craft could be deeper if it were not for the time spent on, what in many cases is a review of High School Academia.

Sorry, just ask a typical Paramedic to write a formal or technical letter then tell me how those within it does not need additional education.

If this is something that is hindering their ability to do their job effectively then yes they might, but they probably don't need 22 credits of electives. So proper composition Medical or otherwise can certainly be argued as to it's pertinence to the Medic, But Universities argue that "Music Appreciation" helps him relate to his patients better. Well a conversation about Jazz just cost him a thousand bucks and three months of his time.

Let's not water it down anymore than it is. Again, if one wants to be a professional with all the benefits, then one has to go the same pathway of other professionals. There is a reason one does this approach.

Agreed, Again my comments were more about feeling that the educational system has more to do with business, than it does with helping people achieve Financial and Practical Mastery of a chosen field.

BTW I will continue to have the errant spelling mistake, as I have little inclination to go back to correct every typo, it only proves my laziness to press a spellcheck. If you have an assumption to make, better to do it out in the open.
R/r 911