Education levels

[daedalus]

yeah... here in the big CA, every county has their own rules... which keeps us on our toes. unfortunately, Sb county has really tightened up on their EMT-B's. o2 and po glucose are the only allowable medications to be dosed. forget about aspirin, nitro, activated charcoal, or epipen. i'd like to see what LA county's rules are

In SBC, EMTs on the engines can administer a few more medications. Also, all 911 transport units are ALS, so there is no need for EMTs to be able to give meds. The Fire EMTs have a samll increase in scope, which is understandable because SB county is massive and some parts very rural.

 

[daedalus]

Apparently you only have a grasp on sarcasm when it comes to your own posts. I was making the point that Composition, Literature etc. all have there place certainly, but I am of the opinion that reviewing these in university are simply a way for the college to make more money, waste the students time, and set the student further back into debt. None of which, pertain to learning medicine.

45ACP, you could not be any further from the truth. I am shocked by your statements. Writing research papers, reading studies, doing original research and finding secondary sources, critical thinking, analysis, and perspective are all critical to the medical field, and are all taught in English. Almost every class you take in college will make you a better paramedic. Chemistry, what do you think the krebs cycle is? Biology, the basis of the human body. Anthropology, learning about the evolution and behavior of the human being. I could go on and on.

What I am saying is that the time could be spent delving deeper into medicine or whatever it is that one is studying in pursuit of a career. I am not suggesting that one book be utilized at all. I am saying that in the same amount of time, & for the same amount of resources ones knowledge of their respective craft could be deeper if it were not for the time spent on, what in many cases is a review of High School Academia.

Again, I find these statements shocking. If you want to delve deeper into medicine, you need to have a strong education background. Go ahead and crack open Robbin's Pathologic Basis of Disease. It is a blue book, and the "bible" of pathology. Pathology is essential to the study of disease. However, to study from this book, you will need a solid grasp on graduate level reading ability, chemistry and organic chemistry, pharmacology, biology, human anatomy, and physiology. To delve deeper in your studies beyond the paramedic text written at the high school level, you need a full college education. No wonder medical school requires a four year degree...

 

[Ridryder911]

You will usually only find those that will criticize education or requiring much more than the "business" portion is those that never attended anything more than just that.

Then how could one really make an educated comparison if they did not receive such?

There is a reason professionals require an education that contains more than just their "job" skills. We could list a whole site of the importance of Psychology beyond the high school level, or the need of English and Composition and of course Biological Sciences.

We wonder why EMS has not reached the age of maturity? We should be asking ourselves why we would one ever question the reasoning of advancing our education levels or mandating it? It is doubtful that any other medical profession has to fight to become educated! Why would one want those involved within their profession would not to have at the least the minimal accepted level of professional academia?

Vocational education is for the development of a trade and does not usually require academia as part of their training development. Education methodology emphasizes utilizing academic and accompanying skills if necessary and does not utilize the training method. Yes, there is a difference and if you do not understand that ... chances are you are trained and not educated.

There are far more things one learns than just within the EMS course itself. The reason I require thesis even in a Basic EMT course. One needs to develop the ability to reason and justify and be able to defend your thoughts per accurate writing and in a formal presentation.

For the same reason many become upset or lack the knowledge to understand that there are many ways of accepted treatment that are never contained within their little textbook. In some circumstances they maybe the best or the worst dependent upon the given situation. One cannot make the rationalization if one is only taught one method.

Look at the EMS and one will see that it still lacks credibility. Credibility only comes from research and proven methods per educated and scientific methodologies. One cannot be or develop being a professional just by being good at their job. Skills alone does not make it become distinguished.

R/r 911

 

[VentMedic]

Rid I think you missed the intent of my question. I'm not talking about equal medical professions, I'm talking about equal professions period. Maybe using level of autonomy and responsibility as comparison factors.

If you had to pick one medical profession you think paramedic is most equal to which one would it be? I ask you to pick one because you listed medical school, but there is no way being a doctor is equal to being a paramedic. Saying that the education requirements for paramedics and EMTs should be increased because the education requirements for doctors are so much higher is kind of like saying that the education for flight attendants should be increased because the education requirements for pilots is so much higher.

Medical school?

All the professions Rid listed can have a high level of autonomy and responsibility depending on where they work. In fact, the Paramedic as it is now pales in comparison to any of those professions if you wanted to just list skills, autonomy and responsibility. The one factor that all of these profession have in common that the Paramedic doesn't is reimbursement as a professional. (Some SCT being the exception.) Education is what has gotten them that recognition.


45ACP,

what in many cases is a review of High School Academia.

Do you have any education beyond high school or are you still in high school?

 

[daedalus]

You will usually only find those that will criticize education or requiring much more than the "business" portion is those that never attended anything more than just that.

Then how could one really make an educated comparison if they did not receive such?

There is a reason professionals require an education that contains more than just their "job" skills. We could list a whole site of the importance of Psychology beyond the high school level, or the need of English and Composition and of course Biological Sciences.

We wonder why EMS has not reached the age of maturity? We should be asking ourselves why we would one ever question the reasoning of advancing our education levels or mandating it? It is doubtful that any other medical profession has to fight to become educated! Why would one want those involved within their profession would not to have at the least the minimal accepted level of professional academia?

Vocational education is for the development of a trade and does not usually require academia as part of their training development. Education methodology emphasizes utilizing academic and accompanying skills if necessary and does not utilize the training method. Yes, there is a difference and if you do not understand that ... chances are you are trained and not educated.

There are far more things one learns than just within the EMS course itself. The reason I require thesis even in a Basic EMT course. One needs to develop the ability to reason and justify and be able to defend your thoughts per accurate writing and in a formal presentation.

For the same reason many become upset or lack the knowledge to understand that there are many ways of accepted treatment that are never contained within their little textbook. In some circumstances they maybe the best or the worst dependent upon the given situation. One cannot make the rationalization if one is only taught one method.

Look at the EMS and one will see that it still lacks credibility. Credibility only comes from research and proven methods per educated and scientific methodologies. One cannot be or develop being a professional just by being good at their job. Skills alone does not make it become distinguished.

R/r 911

What can we expect from skills based, vocational blue collar Technicians who want to keep themselves at that level when there is a huge opportunity to move themselves up. It is akin to shooting one's own foot! WHy will they not pick their heads off the floor and look to the sky?

 

[Aidey]

I haven't expressed an opinion on the education levels one way or another, so please don't assume I feel one way or another. I'm simply curious as to what Rid thinks are equal professions.

I also have to wonder if the skills list has come about because of the vocational/technical roots of Paramedicine, or if it has more to do with the way physician sponsors base standing orders on specific skills.

 

[daedalus]

I haven't expressed an opinion on the education levels one way or another, so please don't assume I feel one way or another. I'm simply curious as to what Rid thinks are equal professions.

I also have to wonder if the skills list has come about because of the vocational/technical roots of Paramedicine, or if it has more to do with the way physician sponsors base standing orders on specific skills.

I would imagine that after paramedics are educated to high levels in medical science, that the scope would not be a skill set, but rather something like "To provide emergency medical care to the sick and injured with sound clinical judgement and with the portable equipment made available to the paramedic based on geographic need". Perhaps an enterprising paramedic, when stuck seemingly out of options, would than call a physician (not an RN representative, I never understood this..) and the two of them could come up with a plan based on the assessment and the equipment available.

 

[VFFforpeople]

I agree, the more I read on about what rid and dael been saying. I agree Basic should require more from the student. I push my-self to learn more even beyond what I am allowed to do. I run critical thinking drills and have people question me on all I did in my drill. I heard a quote I finally took to heart. (I don;t remeber who it was said/written by). "Live as if you were to die tomorrow, Learn as if you were to live forever." Take that for what it is worth and keep pushing on. We all can get complacent withn our own levels, if we do not keep learning how are we helping the sick,injured. We can't and we end up failing them. Again take what you will from my words. I already enrolled in higher education. This forum helped me decided it.

 

[fortsmithman]

How exactly would a 4 year paramedic program be organized? Would it be organized along the same lines as the Bachleor degree program offered by Centennial College/University of Toronto, where the student only graduates as a Primary Care Paramedic / BLS level, or would the program be similar to the Bachleor degree program offered at Medicine Hat College, Alberta, where the student graduates as a Advanced Care Paramedic / ALS level?

As for an EMT/PCP/BLS program, I would like to see the same number of course hours of a 2 year program put into a 1 year program. I don't know about other areas, but the college programs at my area community college apparently don't spend enough hours in class, since they repeatedly trash the streets around the college during every drunken party. A few years ago they even had a homicide (a student was stabbed). Maybee if they were forced to spend more hours in their studies, they wouldn't wreck the neibourhood.

The 4 yr would be ALS and he 2 yr would be BLS.

 

[AJ Hidell]

The 4 yr would be ALS and he 2 yr would be BLS.

Or we could just eliminate BLS from EMS, which seems to be the smarter choice.

 

[VFFforpeople]

Or we could just eliminate BLS from EMS, which seems to be the smarter choice.

I would agree in a way and disagree. I have a few Medics I have been talking too the past couple weeks. So, far what I have gathered is they said, "The best ALS starts with BLS." Everything always goes to the basics, it is a learning foundation and the building block. (I know you know this. I am not speaking down to you, or being smart. What you said just made me think of it.) That is just the stance I take you can't really say your ALS until you have done BLS and the grunt work to make sure you know the basics.

 

[Aidey]

Again, without commenting on the overall educational requirements, I think that a 2 year degree for BLS is a bit overkill when someone can become an RN with a 2 year degree. (Yes, I understand there are usually pre-recs for a 2 year RN, which makes it more like a 3 year RN, but the degree is still an Associates.)

 

[JPINFV]

Well, Canada some how pulls it off. Besides, there are so many paramedics out there that think that their "skills" makes them superior to nurses. Wouldn't it be time for us to put our money where our collective mouths are?

 

[Aidey]

My impression was that Canada's BLS has significantly more skills than our BLS?

 

[JPINFV]

I'm willing to put money down that if EMT-B was a 2 year degree that the scope of practice for basics would be expanded too.

 

[VentMedic]

I would agree in a way and disagree. I have a few Medics I have been talking too the past couple weeks. So, far what I have gathered is they said, "The best ALS starts with BLS." Everything always goes to the basics, it is a learning foundation and the building block. (I know you know this. I am not speaking down to you, or being smart. What you said just made me think of it.) That is just the stance I take you can't really say your ALS until you have done BLS and the grunt work to make sure you know the basics.

Yes, everyone should start out with the basics like any other profession which are covered in their first semesters of college. But, that doesn't mean there must be a basic level or at least not the one the U.S. has. The entry EMT should at the very least be no less than one college year or 3 full college semesters.

 

[Ridryder911]

I would agree in a way and disagree. I have a few Medics I have been talking too the past couple weeks. So, far what I have gathered is they said, "The best ALS starts with BLS." Everything always goes to the basics, it is a learning foundation and the building block. (I know you know this. I am not speaking down to you, or being smart. What you said just made me think of it.) That is just the stance I take you can't really say your ALS until you have done BLS and the grunt work to make sure you know the basics.

Only EMS has BLS and ALS levels.. Wonder why? Ego's. Sorry, we have call the treatment basics do something?.. Therefore the BLS wording was invented.

Medicine is medicine. Albeit in the jungle or the surgical theatre in a large metro hospital. You don't read in other health care perform the BLS then be satisfied with that. Part of the problem is we never teach or enforce that Basic EMS is just a first step and crucial one but tiny, tiny step in treatment. One cannot perform adequate advanced care without performing great initial care (as some prefer to label as BLS). It can't happen! It's impossible! Prove me wrong.

It always amazes me of those that love to spout of the old saying ...."BLS before ALS"... or ..."I much rather have good BLS instead of crappy ALS".... horse poo!

Treatment modalities are continuous. There is always a progression from initial care to definitive therapy. Can one imagine to describe an ER is the BLS and Surgical intervention is the advanced? No. One would and should realize there is a different intervals of care. Levels? If you need to have label. Apparently EMS loves them and titles.

R/r 911

 

[45ACP]

45ACP,


Do you have any education beyond high school or are you still in high school?[/quote]

I have my Bachelors.

Just because I am of the opinion that a great number of classes in your average students first 2 years of University a waste of money doesn't mean I don't support education. I want to reiterate, I don't support some sort of one book approach that keeps getting mentioned. The "General Studies" could certainly afford to be condensed considerably leaving more room for medical related study.

It's unfortunate that some folks assume an opinion that is different to theirs has to come from someone who is uneducated.

 

[AJ Hidell]

I would agree in a way and disagree. I have a few Medics I have been talking too the past couple weeks. So, far what I have gathered is they said, "The best ALS starts with BLS." Everything always goes to the basics, it is a learning foundation and the building block. (I know you know this. I am not speaking down to you, or being smart. What you said just made me think of it.) That is just the stance I take you can't really say your ALS until you have done BLS and the grunt work to make sure you know the basics.

I certainly don't disagree with any of that. And no offense taken. I think you are right on with your assessment. BLS is a foundation. ALS is nothing more than advanced ways of achieving BLS, which is the ABCs. But a foundation alone does not a house make. As you say, you have to build upon that foundation to create a competent practice. And a more competent practice could be built by an educational approach that integrated all facets of patient assessment and care into a single synergistic process. That means eliminating the BLS-only level of EMT from EMS, so that we avoid the disjointed, segregated, dysfunctional process that requires us to turn one level of provider into a completely different provider. It's much better to simply build that provider from the ground up, without half-steps.

 

[daedalus]

Like rid/ryder has pointed out, no other area of medicine splits BLS and ALS. If a doctor is bandaging a wound, is she preforming BLS or ALS? Neither. She is applying her education in treating a patient. Her in depth knowledge of the way wound healing occurs guides her in her technique. Sure, actually applying the bandage may be a "basic skill", but to the doctor, it is just part of the vast amount of clinical education she has received, and is no more or no less important than other treatments she can provide.

One does not have to have been an EMT to master the basics. The basics can be taught and mastered in paramedic school. Therefore, there would be no BLS or ALS, just comprehensive out of hospital medicine.