Do you pack heat?

[clibb]

I have my concealed carry license. I'm pretty active about going to the range for practice, etc. I'm a woman and I wear my .38 LCR in a concealed belly band (no one would suspect it, heh, as it should be), and on occasion I'll wear my SR9 iwb mob. I love it, I feel naked without a gun.

That said, I am currently an EMT-B student and have been informed that you may not carry while on the job. This greatly distresses me. I really don't understand it - as my training so far has emphasized SAFETY, SAFETY, YOUR SAFETY FIRST. Yet, you are not allowed the basic right to protect yourself? :huh: I still really don't understand it.

You feel that you need to carry a gun in Maine for protection?
I wouldn't even want to imagine what you'd carry in the big cities.

 

[Themyst]

The only thing I can think of really is an ankle holster, but that is not how Themyst describes how she carries.

I do also have an ankle holster. I only mentioned my setups of choice.

There is also the question of what do you do when you go somewhere where guns are not permitted, like a school, mental hospital, or jail?

Good point.

 

[Themyst]

You feel that you need to carry a gun in Maine for protection?
I wouldn't even want to imagine what you'd carry in the big cities.

Well, I also have a Kel Tec PLR16. Maybe that one ...

I've had this conversation on other forums with people (mostly from other countries whose governments don't allow them firearm protection) and everyone wants to claim how 'safe' certain areas are. I just don't see it that way. I don't think any place is 'safe'.

 

[johnrsemt]

escorted to area to secure weapon

So if you were on an emergency run, for a critical patient: you would delay patient care so that you can secure your weapon?

There is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

[DrParasite]

So if you were on an emergency run, for a critical patient: you would delay patient care so that you can secure your weapon?

There is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

it's a lawsuit, sure, but everything is a lawsuit. not getting to a scene quick enough is a lawsuit, causing hearing damage to a passerby with a siren is a lawsuit, and apparently not giving pain meds to a person is a lawsuit too. But it's not a lawsuit that you will lose; in fact, it will probably be thrown out before a jury sees it.

like with the police, if you are being told by a facility (jail, psych hospital, etc) to secure your weapon, than that is what you do. if they are requiring you do it as a condition of entry, than you are following their rules, and anyone who sues won't have a viable law suit.

 

[FrostbiteMedic]

it's a lawsuit, sure, but everything is a lawsuit. not getting to a scene quick enough is a lawsuit, causing hearing damage to a passerby with a siren is a lawsuit, and apparently not giving pain meds to a person is a lawsuit too. But it's not a lawsuit that you will lose; in fact, it will probably be thrown out before a jury sees it.

like with the police, if you are being told by a facility (jail, psych hospital, etc) to secure your weapon, than that is what you do. if they are requiring you do it as a condition of entry, than you are following their rules, and anyone who sues won't have a viable law suit.

Yeash, everything may be a lawsuit waiting to happen, but personally I would want to lessen the risk of said lawsuits. The only way I would want to carry while on duty is if I was a sworn officer of a law enforcement agency and that law enforcement agency happened to run EMS where I was as part of the said agency.

 

[Fox800]

What's your weapon's retention like when taking a blood pressure?

Since the vast majority of EMS uniforms are button shirts or polo shirts tucked into heavy duty pants, unless you are planning on wearing a jacket every day, how do you plan on staying concealed?

Will the concealed firearm present a snag hazard when you are working close with patients, especially when moving patients from where ever to your gurney?

http://www.hawkepaks.com/level.itml/icOid/215

 

[Fox800]

And yes, I pack whenever I can. Glock 19 or Ruger LCP (new acquisition). At home they're backed up by a shotgun and a rifle. However, since I spend a large portion of my waking hours at work or on a college campus, it means that I have to go unarmed a lot of the time. OC spray and knife are always with me though.

 

[Bullets]

i carry in a holster shirt. its like two underarmour shirts sewn together with openings on the front. The third button down on my shirts have been removed, sewn onto the outer placket over the hole, and backed with a snap. So if i have to draw, the snap comes undone and i have direct access to the firearm under my armpit. easy peasy lemon squeezy. 511 tactical makes buttondowns like this for Plain Clothes and Off Duty officers but i just do it my self, my sewing skills are proficient enough.

I always carry my permit in my wallet next to my cert, and if i am going in a place like the state pen, i check the firearm and my boot knife, CO's never give me a problem, they understand the nature of the job and the we come in contact with, especially on nights.

 

[DrParasite]

I always carry my permit in my wallet next to my cert, and if i am going in a place like the state pen, i check the firearm and my boot knife, CO's never give me a problem, they understand the nature of the job and the we come in contact with, especially on nights.

I'm curious do you work in Trenton?

most agencies I know of don't want their EMTs armed, even if they are sworn law enforcement officers who are not acting in a LEO capacity at this time.

So I am curious as to where you work where it is so dangerous that not only do you carry, but your coworkers and corrections officers don't have a problem with you having a loaded firearm with you on the ambulance.

 

[Aidey]

I have never heard of an EMS or Fire agency allowing their people to carry while at work. I'm very surprised their employer doesn't have an issue with it.

 

[clibb]

Well, I also have a Kel Tec PLR16. Maybe that one ...

I've had this conversation on other forums with people (mostly from other countries whose governments don't allow them firearm protection) and everyone wants to claim how 'safe' certain areas are. I just don't see it that way. I don't think any place is 'safe'.

Get a bullet proof vest and you're good to go. Last thing you want to do is shoot a patient. You have absolutely no authority. You're an EMS provider not Law Enforcement. How come people don't understand that?

 

[CAO]

...How about not getting shot at? A vest only covers so much.

 

[fortsmithman]

I have never heard of an EMS or Fire agency allowing their people to carry while at work. I'm very surprised their employer doesn't have an issue with it.

Some fire depts do allow certain members to carry sidearms and those certain members are the investigative personnel who are also peace officers and only those who are peace officers.

 

[clibb]

...How about not getting shot at? A vest only covers so much.

So you're going to shoot the person before they shoot at you? Don't you have other stuff to worry about? Like patients? If you want to play gunslinger go to the police academy, because I think EMS is the wrong career path for you.

 

[Akulahawk]

So you're going to shoot the person before they shoot at you? Don't you have other stuff to worry about? Like patients? If you want to play gunslinger go to the police academy, because I think EMS is the wrong career path for you.

Let's put it this way: if someone threatens ME with grave bodily injury, I'm going to respond whether or not I'm on duty as an EMS provider. I have been trained to respond with an appropriate level of force in an appropriate manner.

You don't have to be taking fire to respond with lethal force. So, yes, there are situations where I would potentially shoot first even if I wasn't being shot at. I will not elaborate on any further on that. If you've been trained in use of force, you'll know what's legal, and you'll have training to back up your response.

Remember, the best way to avoid a fight is to not be there...

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

Let's put it this way: if someone threatens ME with grave bodily injury, I'm going to respond whether or not I'm on duty as an EMS provider. I have been trained to respond with an appropriate level of force in an appropriate manner.

You don't have to be taking fire to respond with lethal force. So, yes, there are situations where I would potentially shoot first even if I wasn't being shot at. I will not elaborate on any further on that. If you've been trained in use of force, you'll know what's legal, and you'll have training to back up your response.

Remember, the best way to avoid a fight is to not be there...

This subject is everywhere on the internet and I'm pretty sure it can be debated indefinitely . But I agree with akulakawk and so does the law (in my state).

The are certain criteria that allow for "justified homicide", such as someone entering my home illegally and me fearing for my life or my families. This also applies if you have a CCW and are attacked on the street. If you decide you want to pull the gun and shoot, you must be 100% prepared to be treated and tried as a criminal, so you must be 100% convinced that you are mortally in danger. The best way I heard it described is that if you even consider not doing it then you shouldn't.

Here's the criteria for CA:
Penal Code 197
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

Penal Code 198
A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone.

Penal Code 198.5
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

As a side note: I've never heard of an employer in California allowing EMS to carry weapons, and there's no need as we work in tandem with police.

That laws applies for civilians with or without a CCW.

 

[DrParasite]

3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed;

so if my wife is trying to kill my mistress, I can kill her, and it will all be legal?

cool, I need to move to Cali

 

[Akulahawk]

so if my wife is trying to kill my mistress, I can kill her, and it will all be legal?

cool, I need to move to Cali

If the evidence is clear that your wife was trying to kill your mistress... yes, theoretically, you could. You'd also be investigated for a DV component too. :unsure:

The reality of justifiable homicide in California is you'd better forget the "committing a felony" stuff. If you commit a felony against me, in some manner that doesn't involve Great Bodily Injury, could I kill you? Yes... according to PC 197. I would imagine I'd be prosecuted for it, and probably lose.

PC 197, 198, and 198.5 all provide for some defenses to PC 187 (murder) charges. Even if you're successful in defending yourself, or charges are never filed due to the homicide being "justified", those sections do NOT provide immunity to civil suit. And yes, you'll likely be civilly sued.

This topic has been discussed many times elsewhere. Yes, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to CA. Other states have a much more complete castle doctrine than California does. Oh, and did anyone notice that nowhere in 197, 198, or 198.5 is a retreat requirement?