Did I do everything I could have/did I do anything wrong?

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bstone

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If you where able to provide a page number, that might end all of this. I am just saying.

Just a few moments, I am getting up to find the book.
 

JPINFV

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JPINFV, I still look forward to you supplying a reliable source that would indicate debate on the topic of stopping at the scene of an emergency where medical help was necessary, the scene was safe and you being present.

You really don't understand how ethics work apparently, so I'll ask a single, simply question. What's the AAOS's source for their code of ethics? Alternatively, do they get to determine unilaterally what the code of ethics contains?
 

JPINFV

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Yes, Octomom's fertility doctor lost his CA medical license because they ruled he acted unethically. He was also expelled from his professional association. Acting unethically can cause one to lose their professional certification or license.


...and you're putting the ethical situation of not stopping on your day off at the same level as Octomom's doc?
 

usalsfyre

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I used the Brady books for both Basic and Medic, and don't remember there being anything in there about off-duty "moral and ethical obligations" so I guess I'm good, since only those using that specific Jones and Bartlett book would have to adhere to that code :D.

A patient basically has to be laying in the roadway for me to stop at an accident anymore. I used to, but realized I'm usually more of a hinderance than help.
 

Sasha

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Yes, Octomom's fertility doctor lost his CA medical license because they ruled he acted unethically. He was also expelled from his professional association. Acting unethically can cause one to lose their professional certification or license.

Octomom and her doctor had a physician/patient relationship established and he was supposed to act in the best interest of her and her future children which he failed to do.

There is no provider patient relationship with me and the guy on the side of the road.

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bstone

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Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
"The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."

Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx

The beginning of it reads:
A fundamental responsibility of the Emergency Medical Technician is to conserve life, to alleviate suffering, to promote health, to do no harm, and to encourage the quality and equal availability of emergency medical care.

I don't see anything there that says, "only when on duty".
 
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Sasha

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Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
"The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."

Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx

I am not associated naemt, or nremt. The code doesnt apply.

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JPINFV

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"Duty To Act

...

If you are off duty and not functioning in an EMS capacity, however, in most states you have no more legal obligation to act than any other citizen.

...

If you are off duty from your paid or volunteer service and publicly respond to a page for assistance at an emergency call, or if you come across a scene and decide to stop to provide emergency care, you will create a duty to act because of your intent to provide emergency care, even though you are off duty. [it goes on to discuss the ramifications of someone else thinking that you are a part of the official response and, thus, 911 is never contacted]

...

Ethical Responsibilities

Your ethical responsibilities include these:

  • Serve the needs of the patient with respect for human dignity, without regard to nationality, race, gender, creed, or status
  • Maintain skill mastery...
  • Keep abreast of changes in EMS affecting patient care...
  • Critically review performances...
  • Report with honesty...
  • Work harmoniously with other EMTs, nurses, physicians, and other members of the health care team."
-Brady Prehospital Emergnecy Care, 7th ed. pg 31-32.

Strangely missing? "Must respond when off duty."
 

ffemt8978

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Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
"The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."

Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx

And I see nothing there that states a moral or ethical requirement to render aid when off duty.
 

bstone

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Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?
 

silver

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Please qualify your statement by providing a reliable source that indicates a different opinion on this matter. I look forward to seeing it.
I don't know where you live, but I don't live in a military state that enforces some sort of morality.

So normative ethics are the most popular.

there are 3 different main types:
virtue
deontological
consequentialism

So at the end of life many traditionally trained clinicians will use principles/rules stemming from deontology (autonomy, beneficence, justice, and maleficence). However an astute clinician might use virtues. The results are different, meaning there isn't one standard.


Qualified.
 

JPINFV

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Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
"The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."

Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx

The beginning of it reads:
A fundamental responsibility of the Emergency Medical Technician is to conserve life, to alleviate suffering, to promote health, to do no harm, and to encourage the quality and equal availability of emergency medical care.

I don't see anything there that says, "only when on duty".

I don't see anything that requires me to act off duty either.
 

EMT-MA

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Not feeling the love!!

There is no provider patient relationship with me and the guy on the side of the road.

Hope you are not a practicing EMT near Massachusetts! Maybe you should look for another line of work besides patient care?
 
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bstone

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Are you an EMT when you're off duty? Does the Oath and Code only apply when on duty? Answer those and we'll be able to conclude this fascinating conversation.
 

ffemt8978

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Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?

It appears that way...I see several references to professional, but none to off duty.
 

bstone

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It appears that way...I see several references to professional, but none to off duty.

Alright, then we can agree to disagree. :)

Have a great night, ffemt!
 

JPINFV

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Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?

I would say that, when it comes to issues regarding direct patient care, it only has any force when you have a duty to act, but that duty created by being on duty or when off duty and you act in a manner to create a duty to act. However a duty to act when off duty is not created by proximity.
 

bstone

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I would say that, when it comes to issues regarding direct patient care, it only has any force when you have a duty to act, but that duty created by being on duty or when off duty and you act in a manner to create a duty to act. However a duty to act when off duty is not created by proximity.

I understand your position. I disagree with it, so we'll agree to disagree. :rolleyes:
 

usalsfyre

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Let's be 100% honest. Most of us aren't going to pass by an obvious life threat. The question is should we have to go looking for them. I personally am not going to.
 
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