Coronavirus Discussion Thread

SSMTB

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So from what I’ve heard the hospital I work at have been intubating suspect patients early. To avoid everyone running in the room if the patient crashes and to avoid having the patient on BI Pap. Once the patient is on 6 liters they intubate and transfer to ICU, although I can’t see this being a long term solution as we are getting full. Anyone else have similar experiences?
 

Tigger

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I'm not saying this at @Tigger but rather as a reflection of many of the members of the medical and public service community that I interact with every day.

This is a war, and it isn't a fair one. We don't have adequate supplies, limited knowledge, and an even more limited time frame.

Keeping up to date with developments day to day may be the difference between keeping yourself, your crew, and your family safe. While this disease does target the old and sick, young healthy people have died from it too.

Nobody would leave an incident briefing at a wild land fire early nor would they leave roll call early on the LEO side. That information, no matter how mundane it may seem, is one of the few things we can try to use.
Here's my thing. We aren't completely adrift out here. There are guidelines that are either for or are applicable to EMS. We have to utilize these as a) they are actually somewhat vetted and b) have some consistency out there. A lack of consistency makes for error prone environments. We can't fall victim to just "doing what you think is right" for every last issue. And that is the issue I have with this particular employer, they've gone so far out in left field that there is no way to stay up on what is supposed to be done as it flies in the face of what literally everyone else does. Not to mention the amount of ego at play, a drive thru testing site was set up staffed by vollie EMS at one point and there was of course mention of being "first in the state." Who. Cares.

As the cliche goes, this a marathon not a sprint. Getting worked up early, when there is no appreciable caseload, ensures hysteria when things pick up. If you can't disseminate your plan, you have no plan.
 

VFlutter

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Just had a fulminant shock patient presumed to be COVID Cytokine Storm. Did not survive transport
 

toyskater86

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Hopefully your organization isn’t blatantly telling you to steal from others who are also suffering
 

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Peak

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So I don’t know much about this. My understanding is this is causing people to develop ARDS?

The presentation in the COVID 19 patient varies greatly.

Kids seem to have almost no significant illness with a very small number of hospitalizations and extremely rare deaths. The reported numbers in peds are low, but if kids are only mildly symptomatic they are unlikely to present for testing and even less likely to be eligible for the limited number of tests.

Young healthy adults do seem to represent a decent number of infections and a not insignificant number of hospitalizations, however they do not seem to have a significant amount of representation in those who are critically ill or who die.

Older or more complex adults seem to be the bulk of hospitalizations and deaths. Almost all deaths are the result of ARDS. Because NSAIDs are linked to a cytokine response in asthmatics, NSAIDS are linked to worse outcomes in COVID 19, there is a popular theory that those who are present ARDS are largely either a result of cytokine storm or ventilator related barotrauma.

Interestingly I had a discussion with an a world rebound pulmonologist shortly before COVID 19 became publicized regarding NSAIDs and asthma. She told me that she has only seen one case of NSAID mediated asthma and that it is exceptionally rare. Certainly a new and novel virus can present a new complication not seen before, but this would somewhat bring some of said premise into question. That being said I think that we have incredibly limited information regarding the pathophysiology of COVID 19 and very unreliable information as far as the epidemiology of the virus.

Those adult who do develop ARDS (and I exclude peds because we have such limited data) seem to almost always have a devastating outcome. This certainly isn't universal among COVID infections or even of critical care patient. While I would say that the ARDS pathway is a big killer of these patients, I wouldn't generalize to say that ARDS is a predictable outcome for most COVID 19 patients.
 

VFlutter

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Carlos Danger

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Older or more complex adults seem to be the bulk of hospitalizations and deaths. Almost all deaths are the result of ARDS. Because NSAIDs are linked to a cytokine response in asthmatics, NSAIDS are linked to worse outcomes in COVID 19, there is a popular theory that those who are present ARDS are largely either a result of cytokine storm or ventilator related barotrauma.
My understanding was that the thing about NSAIDS and worse outcomes was a hypothesis based on anecdote and that there was no objective evidence at to support the link. Is that still the case?

That is incredible. I'm shocked that any agency would essentially advocate for stealing supplies from someone else.
I'm not the least bit shocked that an agency would advocate "scrounging", but I'm a little surprised they were dumb enough to distribute it in writing.

Times like this have a tendency to bring out the best in some people, and the worst in others.
 

CCCSD

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My understanding was that the thing about NSAIDS and worse outcomes was a hypothesis based on anecdote and that there was no objective evidence at to support the link. Is that still the case?

That is the current googe.
 

Capital

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It does but there is a subset of patients, usually younger, who are abruptly dying of overwhelming shock and multi-system orgam failure without significant ARDS or other known causes.
This is what we are seeing in our level 2 trauma ED also. About half of the patients under 60 are presenting with abdominal pain/distress. They seem to deteriorate faster, and have a higher mortality, than those that present with respiratory symptoms. We're still running about 5-7 days for test results, and private tests were only made available to us a few days ago (before that we were begging the state).

We are also only doing MDI and hi-flow, or RSI - no nebs, no BiPAP - all or nothing. We're limiting the number of staff in the room, and have added the PPE buddy check to the TImeOut procedure.

Edit to add:
We are seeing a significant increase in our (already overloaded) mental health services. So many of our frequent fliers have no skills or ability to handle the anxiety of this situation and they *keep* coming back in. I'm an ED nurse, not a psych nurse, for a reason. Debating with these folks while sweating my *** off in a N95, gown and double gloves is getting old...
 
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DrParasite

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We are also only doing MDI and hi-flow, or RSI - no nebs, no BiPAP - all or nothing.
I get the no nebs, but why not BiPAP? I would imagine the alternative is a tube, and a vent, and aren't we trying to keep people off a vent unless they medically need it?
 

Capital

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I get the no nebs, but why not BiPAP? I would imagine the alternative is a tube, and a vent, and aren't we trying to keep people off a vent unless they medically need it?
There are questions about the expiratory port filter efficacy on our BiPap. We have 50+ rooms, but only a few are negative pressure, and a fairly open layout. So they've made the decision to not use BiPap with any potential Covid until we have clearer evidence. I've never seen any situation this fluid, changing by the hour as to policy and entire procedures. It's frankly exhausting.
 

GMCmedic

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My understanding was that the thing about NSAIDS and worse outcomes was a hypothesis based on anecdote and that there was no objective evidence at to support the link. Is that still the case?


I'm not the least bit shocked that an agency would advocate "scrounging", but I'm a little surprised they were dumb enough to distribute it in writing.

Times like this have a tendency to bring out the best in some people, and the worst in others.
I read some stuff out of New York last night. Theyre still avoiding NSAIDs cause of the anecdotal french evidence,and cause of down stream renal failure.
 

Carlos Danger

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There are questions about the expiratory port filter efficacy on our BiPap. We have 50+ rooms, but only a few are negative pressure, and a fairly open layout. So they've made the decision to not use BiPap with any potential Covid until we have clearer evidence. I've never seen any situation this fluid, changing by the hour as to policy and entire procedures. It's frankly exhausting.
The thing about BiPAP and CPAP is that even if your expiratory filter works perfectly, there's still a significant risk of aerosolization from mask leaks.

Personally, its seems as though avoiding NIPPV generally makes sense even aside from the concerns about aerosolization. ARDS requiring mechanical support is almost universally going to wind up needing a tube anyway. Those who do not have evidence of ARDS and just low Sp02 can potentially get over the hump with oxygen and positioning and may be harmed by PPV. If they get to a point that they do need mechanical support (but still without ARDS), then they are usually very sick with a high mortality rate and will need a tube, resource allocation allowing.

At least that seems *generally* true to me based on everything I'm reading. Still have been involved with very few cases where I work.
 

VentMonkey

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The thing about BiPAP and CPAP is that even if your expiratory filter works perfectly, there's still a significant risk of aerosolization from mask leaks.

Personally, its seems as though avoiding NIPPV generally makes sense even aside from the concerns about aerosolization. ARDS requiring mechanical support is almost universally going to wind up needing a tube anyway. Those who do not have evidence of ARDS and just low Sp02 can potentially get over the hump with oxygen and positioning and may be harmed by PPV. If they get to a point that they do need mechanical support (but still without ARDS), then they are usually very sick with a high mortality rate and will need a tube, resource allocation allowing.

At least that seems *generally* true to me based on everything I'm reading. Still have been involved with very few cases where I work.
I want to say one of the docs on the podcast I had listened to eluded to the fact that they were wanting to allow the NIV patients the chance to self-position/ self-prone and had seen some positive results.
 
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