Coronavirus Discussion Thread

Medic511 said:
We will have to disagree on that one.

I share and support your willingness to risk your life. I am equally bothered by your (apparently unilateral) decision to risk your family, especially if your family include minor children. That can of course be a cultural and/or religious matter I suppose but please at least reflect on whether you truly mean what you say.

Medical professionals are being pressed to disregard the long-held fundamental rule of provider safety first (and assuring safe scene) by being asked to re-use single-use supplies and accept low-level protection devices. These "think outside the box" talking points cover up the fact (intentionally or otherwise) that they confuse the "safety" box with the "availability" box. It is never appropriate to think outside the safety box BUT searching for alternatives and creatively using alternate devices and procedures IS appropriate but does come with a financial cost. We should not put that added financial cost above our personal safety and the health of our loved ones. Buy and de-con re-usable, use available alternative masks or effective masking devices, use SCBA rather than N95, yell at, report, and shame government officials that are hoarding existing supplies, make the news media your friend for a change, do not be afraid to say "no, not until," explain that being told "no" is not acceptable, etc.

Remember your role as advocate. That is an import role for a professional. Attempting to be a hero at the cost of your family's safety is not appropriate in my opinion.
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I love how every time one publicly acknowledges the risk inherent in a situation they are derided as having a hero complex and/or accused of not having considered those risks.

You make a lot of assumptions. I'd think the view from way up in that ivory tower would be better than it apparently is.
 
Medic511 said:
Assuming that people turn to the news media to learn the facts of the world around them, competition would serve to foster and improve accurate reporting. Accurate reporting would be desired by those readers seeking factual information. Readers looking for comfort (regardless of accuracy) would be likely to be unhappy with factually accurate media. Does that sound like anyone you know?
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Given your opening assumption, I'd agree competition among media should lead to better reporting, but I'm referring to media outlets that choose to appeal to special interests by slanting content. Their audiences are the ones unhappy with accurate, unbiased media.
 
FiremanMike said:
. . .

To which I say "folks, I'm open, I've been looking, and I can't find any. PLEASE send me the thinks so we can purchase these things ASAP"

Number of links I've received = 0

If you have links to supplies, send them to me.
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Links? No wonder you are having trouble. Call you long-time sources and look for acceptable substitiutes. No, you will not of course find Medical N95 now. You MAY find construction N95s. You will be able to find some re-useable (more expensive) equal or better (also expensive). Single-use gowns? No, of course not now. But, look for re-usable gowns, bleach, and a washing machine (all available) as well as Tyvek coveralls, butcher aprons and upper uniforms. Be creative. Your definition of "creative" seems to be based on accepting decreased safety. THAT is what is not acceptable. There is a secret at work here: the longer you wait, the less choice you will have and the more you will ultimately pay both financially and otherwise.
 
Sled Driver said:
The NYC Morgue is near capacity, per Weather.com
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So here's an example of media hyping the situation...Weather.com picked that up from Politico that looks like a story from the NYT where a young lady is holding a bloody organ of some sort or another...(paywall)

www.nytimes.com

Piled Bodies, Overflowing Morgues: Inside America’s Autopsy Crisis (Published 2020)

Medical examiners provide crucial insights into public health and safety. What happens when we don’t have enough of them?
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Some questions that won't be answered in any media outlet...has this happened before? How many times? Under what conditions?

While having elements of truth, they add nothing to the conversation and just create more angst while selling clicks. This then forces policy makers to make decisions based on faulty or false information in order to appear as though they're in control.

I'm not a fan of capital punishment, but if there were public hangings of opportunistic "journalists" after all of this was said and done, I might grab some popcorn.
 
mgr22 said:
Given your opening assumption, I'd agree competition among media should lead to better reporting, but I'm referring to media outlets that choose to appeal to special interests by slanting content. Their audiences are the ones unhappy with accurate, unbiased media.
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Sorry. I assumed you meant real news media. You are correct, Fox News as an example was formed by Mr Murdock as a propaganda machine and never intended to be a real news outlet.
 
Remi said:
. . .

If you think CNN and Fox News and countless columnists and bloggers have your welfare in mind, then I can't help you.
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Your islander neighbors are panicking. There is nothing on CNN that would lead a reasonable person to reach any of the conclusions you recite. There ARE 62,000 confirmed cases in the US today. More than 3 dozen DOCTORS have DIED in Italy. Some (not all) some EMS agencies ARE re-using single use supplies here in the US. THESE ARE FACTS. If your neighbors are over-reacting perhaps you can counsel them but why you blame the media sounds like you blame the messenger or support censorship, just in the public good of course. If you want to re-write the US Constitution, form a PAC, get donors, and go for it. THAT is your right. For the time being, a free press is MY RIGHT.
 
Medic511 said:
Links? No wonder you are having trouble. Call you long-time sources and look for acceptable substitiutes. No, you will not of course find Medical N95 now. You MAY find construction N95s. You will be able to find some re-useable (more expensive) equal or better (also expensive). Single-use gowns? No, of course not now. But, look for re-usable gowns, bleach, and a washing machine (all available) as well as Tyvek coveralls, butcher aprons and upper uniforms. Be creative. Your definition of "creative" seems to be based on accepting decreased safety. THAT is what is not acceptable. There is a secret at work here: the longer you wait, the less choice you will have and the more you will ultimately pay both financially and otherwise.
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Yeah, thats what I thought. Every chucklehead “just knows there’s options out there” and feels “you should just more creative” but when pressed, they really have no clue what they’re talking about.

If you’ve unearthed the magic outside the box solution to all of the exposure control needs of the entire planet, share it or shut it..
 
This popped up in my linkedin feed today

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We've had overwhelming local responses to the homemade masks requests. One of our nurses daughters is currently making some for our crews now. It appears on the N95 front were doing ok
 
E tank said:
I'm not a fan of capital punishment, but if there were public hangings of opportunistic "journalists" after all of this was said and done, I might grab some popcorn.
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That’s an unbelievably reckless statement to make.
 
Remi said:
Man, I'm gonna have to just not use the internet at all for a few weeks because I'm pretty close to my limit with the constant exposure to all the keyboard epidemiologists / infectious disease experts spreading misinformation and generating so much unnecessary noise and stress.

By the middle of summer we are gonna look back on this and likely, and those who think critically and are able to look at the numbers rationally are going to say "man, we overreacted substantially and will now be paying for that hysteria for a long, long time" while the sheeple who believe everything they see on CNN or Fox News will of course thank the government for the months of 20%+ unemployment and ensuing economic destruction because "this thing could have killed us all!! Trump should have acted faster!!"
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Curious then, if not the keyboard epidemiologists, which ones are you listening to? There is a clear consensus in the community of scientists who study infectious disease - we are not overreacting, we are under-reacting. You can put the media aside- they having nothing to do with the expert consensus. The public health community is united in calling for drastic measures to be implemented and maintained.
 
Lemur said:
Curious then, if not the keyboard epidemiologists, which ones are you listening to? There is a clear consensus in the community of scientists who study infectious disease - we are not overreacting, we are under-reacting. You can put the media aside- they having nothing to do with the expert consensus. The public health community is united in calling for drastic measures to be implemented and maintained.
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Actually, that isn't true. The voices who are promoted in the media are the ones you hear, but there are plenty of credible analysts who disagree with the necessity of our current approach.
 
Medic511 said:
Assuming that people turn to the news media to learn the facts of the world around them, competition would serve to foster and improve accurate reporting.
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One would certainly hope all people involved in the medical profession wouldn't stoop to sensationalist cat barf when the real deal is at your fingertips: WHO, CDC, ECDC, NHC, DXY, 1point3acres, Worldometers.info, BNO
And of course, do contrapuntal comparisons on your own.
-If you aren't thinking critically and analytically, somebody else is doing your thinking for you-
-You will get more truth, and gain more knowledge and understanding, from one honest intelligent critic than from an army of sycophants-
 
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FiremanMike said:
Yeah, thats what I thought. Every chucklehead “just knows there’s options out there” and feels “you should just more creative” but when pressed, they really have no clue what they’re talking about.

If you’ve unearthed the magic outside the box solution to all of the exposure control needs of the entire planet, share it or shut it..
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Any fair reading of my posts will show quite specific suggestions that have worked for us. There is no "magic" solution, just hard work. You are not exactly an easy person to help, since you feel you have already done all of which you feel you are capable. Your EMTs who depend upon you have my best wishes.
 
Remi said:
Actually, that isn't true. The voices who are promoted in the media are the ones you hear, but there are plenty of credible analysts who disagree with the necessity of our current approach.
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True, there are some dissenting voices. But they aren’t really being pushed aside by the media, they are just an extremely tiny minority. There was an op ed in the NYT by David Katz on the 20th for example, where he argued for more selective measures to protect the elderly and other vulnerable groups while letting the rest of society get on with it. This hasn’t caught on, because again, the almost universal consensus amongst everybody else is that it won’t work. Which absolutely sucks by the way. But I would dispute your assertion that there are “plenty of credible” authorities who disagree. I’m happy to talk this out in more detail, and get into the weeds if you want. But I’m also confident that in 5 days time, there will be no argument and no other side to this debate. We are about to see really horrible things happen in New York City and no one will want replicated where they live.

I do think there is room to be more flexible in parts of the country where there are not many cases. But you need a robust public health infrastructure that can test and isolate cases. We don’t have that yet.
 
Medic511 said:
Any fair reading of my posts will show quite specific suggestions that have worked for us. There is no "magic" solution, just hard work. You are not exactly an easy person to help, since you feel you have already done all of which you feel you are capable. Your EMTs who depend upon you have my best wishes.
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Seems you've just been covering the bases. Not sure why the negativity.

Honestly, a whole heck of a lot of people who work medical would benefit from a gig or two in a back water third world clinic or hospital. Patients on gurneys in long lines down every wide hall. Private rooms are 2 or 4 bed. Not a single spare piece of equipment standing idle. Everyone has more than a 100% work load. Your face mask is often used for a week at a time. Patients families camping outside anywhere they can find room ...
Recollection of the main hospital in Fiji, 1991. Do NOT look at the floor. Housekeeping, constantly overwhelmed, gave up doing more than sweeping a few years back.

Interesting conjecture from a S.E. Asia medical group. Mortality rate of Covid-19 may be far lower than the seasonal flu. Conjecture based upon the apparent much greater variation in symptoms of Covid-19, from non noticeable on out.
 
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Medic511 said:
Any fair reading of my posts will show quite specific suggestions that have worked for us. There is no "magic" solution, just hard work. You are not exactly an easy person to help, since you feel you have already done all of which you feel you are capable. Your EMTs who depend upon you have my best wishes.
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Your final post offered a small number of suggestions, some of which are not acceptable forms of PPE and some of them have already been in place and/or in stock at our agency for decades.

Frankly, you have no idea what my stockpile looks like, nor do you have any idea what message I'm sending to my crew. We were actually fairly well stocked from the H1N1 outbreak and I'm relatively confident that we'll make it through this..

You're a boot on the ground, this is obvious from your posts. You may or may not be a great provider, you may be an excellent employee. I was there too, and when I lacked perspective I used to have the same feelings of angst as you.. "why isn't admin doing more", "I could do it so much better", "they just don't care". Then I found myself in an admin role and my perspective changed. Pieces of the puzzle that I had previously filled with assumption were now filled with first hand experience and I realized how little I actually understood.

You don't know what you don't know, and the more you double down with your condescension towards me, the more foolish you appear.
 
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