Confusion on when to give Neb treatments and what to use..

[Jay506]

This is one of those things that I like to hear from active medics about. It's probably simple but it's something that confuses me. When do YOU give a breathing treatment and why do you or don't you give albuterol and atrovent or just albuterol?

 

[Accelerator]

I like to look at the capnography before I give a duoneb treatment. Especially if the patient already is tachycardic. Sometimes that's not always an option. Always listen to breathe sounds. Any sort of wheezing and it's probably a good bet to give a duoneb. Our protocol also recommends it for pneumonia.

I always give both drugs together. If they need one they'll probably need the other.

 

[Akulahawk]

I do an assessment before starting a breathing treatment on someone. That assessment can happen very rapidly and I always listen to the lungs. Wheezing is one thing, but I get more worried about diminished breath sounds in the setting of much SOB and increased work of breathing. Most of the time I'll call for a DuoNeb for the same reason as above... if they need one, they'll probably need the other and it's a combo that works pretty well most of the time.

Something to remember is that when you have a patient that's so diminished that they're not wheezing at all and they start wheezing during or just after a breathing treatment, it's probably because their lungs are starting to open up enough to allow the wheezing to occur. They sound worse, but it's actually an improvement.

 

[Jay506]

Great info, thanks!

 

[NomadicMedic]

I've only seen a couple of studies that have been conducted to establish efficacy of albuterol alone versus albuterol with ipratroprium. Most of them were old, from the 90s.

It seemed as though there was no statistical difference in outcome of the majority of asthma patients that received just albuterol versus the Combivent. There was a group of elderly COPD patients that DID have improved outcome with the addition of ipratroprium.

Just like much of the medicine we practice, ipratroprium falls into the "probably won't hurt, and might help" camp. I asked the doc at the ED about it this morning, and that was his quick answer.



Here's a couple of links:

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10903120500255404


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8797400/

 

[04_edge]

We only carry Albuterol at my service, and really patient presentation dictates how early or late i give it. If they are working pretty hard to breath, generally we get them to the truck, throw the pulse ox on real quick, listen to breath sounds, and while I'm doing that my partner is getting the neb ready. I like to get them on ETCo2 as quickly as possible as well, seeing their I:E normalize is a pretty good early indicator of how well treatment is working and if they are going to require further intervention. On a side note, we carry brethine, and if there is any decrease in lung sounds on initial auscultation i usually give that along with the first neb and have had great results with it.

 

[Gurby]

I was just reading about ipratropium on wikipedia last night! Pretty interesting drug. It's actually a derivative of atropine, but does not diffuse into the blood - thus, it shouldn't really complicate things cardiac-wise (which is kind of the only concern with giving albuterol). It has a different mechanism from albuterol (it blocks acetylcholine receptors as opposed to albuterol which is a beta agonist) which is nice - if the patient is calling you for an asthma exacerbation they've probably already taken their inhaler a bunch and it hasn't helped, so going down a different path (in addition to higher dose of albuterol) could help.

I've seen ED docs order plain albuterol before, but I think the only situation where I'd do that in the field is if patient has an allergy to ipratropium (or atropine), or something like that.

 

[TheLocalMedic]

@Gurby The reason you don't see Atrovent being ordered with albuterol in the hospital setting is because albuterol can pretty much be continuously given while atrovent needs only to be given at intervals, and too much can be harmful. If EMS brings in a patient that has already gotten a dose of atrovent, then there is no reason for the ED to give even more.

Most people with asthma, pneumonia or COPD exacerbation will get both albuterol and atrovent in the first neb treatment I give, but I tend to limit that to only albuterol in pediatric patients unless they're more severely dyspneic.

 

[RocketMedic]

To expand on that, there's not a lot of benefit to continuous atrovent treatments. Initial duoneb, additional albuterol-only

 

[Handsome Robb]

We give up to 5mg of atrovent before we go albuterol only.

At that point if it's not helping it won't do any good giving more as others have said.

 

[wanderingmedic]

To add another option to the discussion, I really like Xopenex. I have found it doesn't seem to induce tachycardia like albuterol does, and is just as effective for opening diff. breathers up. I really like it as an option when patients are not responding well to albuterol, or have been repetitively using an albuterol inhaler prior to our arrival. Unfortunately, my current service does not carry it, and it does not seem like many services have it on their trucks.

 

[chaz90]

We give up to 5mg of atrovent before we go albuterol only.

At that point if it's not helping it won't do any good giving more as others have said.

5 mg or 0.5 mg? I've always seen Atrovent dosed at 0.5 mg, so it would blow my mind if someone were giving 10x that dose.

 

[Handsome Robb]

5 mg or 0.5 mg? I've always seen Atrovent dosed at 0.5 mg, so it would blow my mind if someone were giving 10x that dose.

You're right. And we can give up to 1.0 mg.

Whoops haha. Not sure how I ended up at that number.

 

[polisciaggie]

To add another option to the discussion, I really like Xopenex. I have found it doesn't seem to induce tachycardia like albuterol does, and is just as effective for opening diff. breathers up. I really like it as an option when patients are not responding well to albuterol, or have been repetitively using an albuterol inhaler prior to our arrival. Unfortunately, my current service does not carry it, and it does not seem like many services have it on their trucks.

I too prefer Xopenex, unless the patient is allergic to it I pretty much always use that instead of Albuterol. There is one patient in my service area that is highly allergic to Xopenex, had to be tubed twice because of it but responds to Albuterol great.

 

[wanderingmedic]

I too prefer Xopenex, unless the patient is allergic to it I pretty much always use that instead of Albuterol. There is one patient in my service area that is highly allergic to Xopenex, had to be tubed twice because of it but responds to Albuterol great.

For whatever reason, it seems like Xopenex is much more popular in Texas and the south than other states.

 

[Tigger]

We are capped at .5mg of atrovent. Our medical director prefers that the first treatment be albuterol only. If you think the patient could benefit from an an additional neb, that's when atrovent is considered.

 

[Carlos Danger]

I too prefer Xopenex, unless the patient is allergic to it I pretty much always use that instead of Albuterol.

Levalbuterol (xopenex) and albuterol are essentially the same drug. Just different isomers of the same chemical. Equal in efficacy.

 

[Rialaigh]

I think an important topic to bring up that has not been mentioned yet is the importance of identifying when NOT to give Albuterol/Atrovent.

Different studies show that a fairly significant portion of our heart failure patients with difficulty breathing can have cardiac wheezing or cardiac "asthma". Ive seen numbers range from less than 10% to almost a third of heart failure patients with start of pulmonary edema. Having seen the results of multiple patients receiving Albuterol or Atrovent when not properly differentially diagnosed and seeing the outcome of severe tachycardia, hypertension, and ultimately fairly rapid flash pulmonary edema almost always resulting in a fairly emergent RSI. I would put as much thought and effort into being able to properly identify your highly likely or suspected CHF patients and the source of the breathing problem before throwing a neb on everyone with wheezing. I think of all the medications we carry on most ambulance services this combination of meds, in the high frequency that they are given, are an area in which we actually do a substantial amount of harm to our patient population by misusing these drugs. More so than many of the other medications we carry.


Short Version - Get really really good at identifying your lung sounds in all lung fields, and know how to ask all the right questions to be sure with a high level of certainty that the patient your about to give a breathing treatment to is not suffering from acute CHF.

 

[NomadicMedic]

Short Version - Get really really good at identifying your lung sounds in all lung fields, and know how to ask all the right questions to be sure with a high level of certainty that the patient your about to give a breathing treatment to is not suffering from acute CHF.

...and learn to identify a constricted capnography waveform, as opposed to a flat expiratory plateau. Using capnography can help you make those treatment decisions.

 

[Clare]

For mild asthma or COPD use the pts own MDI/spacer if they have it available.

If their asthma or COPD is moderate or severe give nebulised salbutamol (continuously if severe) and one dose of 0.5 mg of ipratropium.

For a pt with severe asthma/COPD the rationale for continuous nebulised salbutamol is that it maximises the amount available even if their tidal volume is poor. Obviously if you need to hand ventilate them then stop giving it!

Agree that heart failure can produce a wheeze that sounds like asthma, but I don't think asthma/COPD is that difficult to distinguish from heart failure, and I have yet to see a patient that has a history of both.