concealed weapon carry

[Clipper1]

show of hands: how many CCW permit holders "brag about shooting people for no reason except maybe the color of their skin"? Hmmm.

how many people "are pulling your weapon on every medical call because you saw a Friday the 13th rerun the night before"? hmmm.

i don't see many hands being raised. do you?

Looking at the EMS wire you could be wrong. Just recently there was a NY Paramedic on the front page with his comments and gun collection.

There are also a few comments made here which should raise some red flags for their employer to be concerned about.

 

[truetiger]

I've already pointed out we are not talking about the general public dealing with other people in the general public. Some of the most questionable situations involving mentally altered patients at my agency have also involved the people that would be the first to carry on the job if they could. I have no doubt that some of those patients would have ended up shot, and in all the cases the provider came out fine, without needing a gun.

That is purely your assumption. As a CCW holder the 2nd last thing i would want to do is shoot someone, the last thing would be to not come home.

 

[Clipper1]

That is purely your assumption. As a CCW holder the 2nd last thing i would want to do is shoot someone, the last thing would be to not come home.

You would have much more of a chance of being shot working in fast food, a quik mart or some ERs. If you are that afraid, rethink your job. You will also find that there is a greater chance of dying in a MVC or getting hit by a city bus than shot. With the "fighting stance" some have taken with their pro gun attitude, putting temptation into your hands when you are working in EMS may only lead to bad things. You may not have to shoot someone to find yourself out of a job and having your family's financial well being threatened. It is good for drama to talk about not coming home but remember you have a home now. Take a self defense class designed for EMS and don't rely on a gun getting you out of situations. Learn more about hazmat and don't shoot a gun in a meth lab. Approach an ammonia fire with caution and learn from the mistakes of others. Write to some of the former law enforcement officers who are now serving prison time for what they (and co-workers) believed to be a justified shoot. They might still have their life but the lives of their loved ones have been changed forever as they are in hiding in fear of their lives which no gun will ever give them security.

 

[ffemt8978]

To all -

Tone down the rhetoric and hyperbole and provide factual basis for your arguments or this thread will go the way of all the other concealed carry threads here.

But if you truly want to debate concealed carry using only those methods, then there are plenty of firearms and anti-firearms forums out there to do it.

 

[DrParasite]

Looking at the EMS wire you could be wrong. Just recently there was a NY Paramedic on the front page with his comments and gun collection.

please cite your link(s). I did a quick search and found nothing.

BTW, having a gun collection and shooting people for no reason are two vastly different issues. please try to stay on topic, and explain how they apply to CCW, especially on an ambulance.

 

[Aidey]

That is purely your assumption. As a CCW holder the 2nd last thing i would want to do is shoot someone, the last thing would be to not come home.

Without going into a long drawn out explanation, it is not purely my assumption. That might be your goal as a CCW holder, but n=1.

 

[Clipper1]

please cite your link(s). I did a quick search and found nothing.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/staten_island/bravest_crying_shame_Ez4sgNRTlOPVLGiSJ146qK

BTW, having a gun collection and shooting people for no reason are two vastly different issues. please try to stay on topic, and explain how they apply to CCW, especially on an ambulance

If you relate violence, gun laws and everything which is wrong with the world to Jews and blacks, it may not take much to set you off. Looking the other way is not the way to prevent violence. If you know someone you work with might have issues, would you really advocate for him to carry on the job.

Do you carry a gun on the job and does your employer know? How often do you go to the gun range? Do you keep a lock box in the ambulance which can not be removed easily? Do you carry the gun into the hospitals and other public places where CCW are not usually allowed?

 

[Carlos Danger]

If you want to argue about right to carry, get out of your chairs, right now, strap on your holster or get out your rifle, load your weapon, carry it in plain sight (no "CCW" necessary, right?) then walk one mile out and one mile back in a commercial or retail district and see what happens. GO by an elementary school if possible. Stop by and go inside McDonald's. Drive with it on the front passenger seat and bust a stop sign and see the reaction when pulled over. "Put the rubber on the road" for this discussion and report back.

What are you talking about?

 

[Carlos Danger]

Citizen CCW owners do more than a 1000 rounds? Many will also not do more than that in a life time of owning a weapon.

Are you kidding me? You clearly don't know many CCW holders. They tend to be very active with training; I bet many train more than a typical cop does.

It's nothing at all for someone to go out and fire a few hundred rounds on a saturday afternoon. In fact it is quite common.

If you are that afraid, rethink your job. You will also find that there is a greater chance of dying in a MVC or getting hit by a city bus than shot.

It has nothing to do with being afraid of your job.

It is simply about retaining the same rights at work as you have when you are not at work.

 

[Clipper1]

Are you kidding me? You clearly don't know many CCW holders. They tend to be very active with training; I bet many train more than a typical cop does.

It's nothing at all for someone to go out and fire a few hundred rounds on a saturday afternoon. In fact it is quite common.



It has nothing to do with being afraid of your job.

It is simply about retaining the same rights at work as you have when you are not at work.

I think you are over estimating those who are CCW. Some got it just because they could when it became popular. I would imagine there are some who might read some of your posts and decide to go for their CCW permit. I know young and old, men and women who have CCW permits and even own a couple of nice guns which they haven't shot since they got their permit. Alot of us don't go to the range even once a year but still have a gun and a permit. When some of the states first started allowing CCW, it was new and cool. Good times for the gun shop owners back then.

Your employer also has rights. You might have the right to smoke at home but that does not mean you can on the ambulance. Some apartments also ban smoking. You comply or move. The lease you sign give the landlords that right. Your work agreement to abide by the policies set forth by the employer. You have the right to get another job if you don't agree with your employer. Why do you think you have the right to violate your company's policy? Do you also refuse to wear the uniform?

When you get a CCW, you also agree to abide by the regulations pertaining to that permit. Being an EMT does not give you the right to violate those either.

 

[Aidey]

It is simply about retaining the same rights at work as you have when you are not at work.

Then how come people aren't throwing a fit over not being able to say whatever they want while in uniform or on the clock? When people post stupid stuff on Facebook and get in trouble, everyone chides them for being stupid. But when they want to carry a gun on duty they are just trying to protect their rights.

 

[Rialaigh]

I have thought about this some more after reading all the replies and I have come to a conclusion, that I think I could agree with.

I would be okay with CCW on ambulances, in the station, and etc. If

1. All EMS must pass physical testing that includes the use of physical force to restrain people, similar to law enforcement training. If your not willing to go to the ground with a patient and fight for your gun in training then you don't get to carry a gun.
2. All EMS who CCW must also carry tasers and handcuffs and be allowed and required to use them in accordance with the use of force continuum. I don't think we should be giving people one tool to do 5 jobs, if they want the most deadly tool then they will be required to carry the other tools necessary to effectively do all 5 jobs.
3. If you work in a dangerous area with repeat encounters requiring use of force then you will be required to wear protective gear of some form on calls (vest, etc).
4. EMS who CCW will be required to wear recorders on calls.



I'm fine with giving EMS the tools to do the job if you give them all the tools. If your not willing to carry everything needed to effectively do the job then you can't carry any of it. This is not a profession where you get to pick and choose based on personal preference when your talking about your personal safety and the safety of others.



If you think this is unreasonable and you should be able to be 300 pounds, completely out of shape, not trained in physical restrain and use of force, and carry a gun, then I vote we take everything except monitors and 14 gauge needles off the trucks, if they look bad we will just start huge needles run big bags of fluid wide open, intubate and shock them, if they look fine we will just take the to the hospital....


Carry all the tools to get the job done. If you want any of the tools, then be responsible enough to have the best tools and know how to use them all...

 

[Medic Tim]

I have thought about this some more after reading all the replies and I have come to a conclusion, that I think I could agree with.

I would be okay with CCW on ambulances, in the station, and etc. If

1. All EMS must pass physical testing that includes the use of physical force to restrain people, similar to law enforcement training. If your not willing to go to the ground with a patient and fight for your gun in training then you don't get to carry a gun.
2. All EMS who CCW must also carry tasers and handcuffs and be allowed and required to use them in accordance with the use of force continuum. I don't think we should be giving people one tool to do 5 jobs, if they want the most deadly tool then they will be required to carry the other tools necessary to effectively do all 5 jobs.
3. If you work in a dangerous area with repeat encounters requiring use of force then you will be required to wear protective gear of some form on calls (vest, etc).
4. EMS who CCW will be required to wear recorders on calls.



I'm fine with giving EMS the tools to do the job if you give them all the tools. If your not willing to carry everything needed to effectively do the job then you can't carry any of it. This is not a profession where you get to pick and choose based on personal preference when your talking about your personal safety and the safety of others.



If you think this is unreasonable and you should be able to be 300 pounds, completely out of shape, not trained in physical restrain and use of force, and carry a gun, then I vote we take everything except monitors and 14 gauge needles off the trucks, if they look bad we will just start huge needles run big bags of fluid wide open, intubate and shock them, if they look fine we will just take the to the hospital....


Carry all the tools to get the job done. If you want any of the tools, then be responsible enough to have the best tools and know how to use them all...

at this point woundn't it be easier and cheaper to just hire more police and put them through the 150 hour emt class and have them first respond in place of fire.

 

[Bullets]

Then how come people aren't throwing a fit over not being able to say whatever they want while in uniform or on the clock? When people post stupid stuff on Facebook and get in trouble, everyone chides them for being stupid. But when they want to carry a gun on duty they are just trying to protect their rights.

Because when you accept employment you agree to whatever their social media policy is

And the same would occur with CCW, you agree to whatever policy the employer allows.

The point here is that there should be a discussion with employers to develop and set a policy one way or the other. I would be interested in knowing how many agencies actually have a policy on CCW. I know mine doesnt because NJ doesnt issue

 

[RocketMedic]

Citizen CCW owners do more than a 1000 rounds? Many will also not do more than that in a life time of owning a weapon. CCWs are easily obtained in some states after a 4 hour class at a gun show. Some might require hands on and some don't.

If your law enforcement are as poorly trained as you are saying, maybe it is better to start getting them up to a decent level before trying to hand out CCWs to every joe smo on the street just like EMS should get its levels consistent before adding more alphabet.

The only pistol I own with less than a thousand rounds fired is my .38. My .45 has about 1200 through it, and Im pretty familiar with a Beretta 92.

Clipper, your bias is showing.

 

[RocketMedic]

Then how come people aren't throwing a fit over not being able to say whatever they want while in uniform or on the clock? When people post stupid stuff on Facebook and get in trouble, everyone chides them for being stupid. But when they want to carry a gun on duty they are just trying to protect their rights.

Facebook cannot literally stab you or choke you until you die.

 

[DrParasite]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/staten_island/bravest_crying_shame_Ez4sgNRTlOPVLGiSJ146qK

If you relate violence, gun laws and everything which is wrong with the world to Jews and blacks, it may not take much to set you off. Looking the other way is not the way to prevent violence. If you know someone you work with might have issues, would you really advocate for him to carry on the job.

I believe the appropriate response to that is n=1 (am I using this right??). you can't judge an entire culture (in this case, CCW people) by one racist paramedic. I know 100 nice people who like minorities and jews. they don't want to shoot people. racists are everywhere, you can't based everyone based on a very small minority. I can also assure you, the majority of the paramedics in both FDNY and NYC EMS aren't racist idiot. Out of 3,200 FDNY EMS people, if 3 are racist, that's only 0.09% of the entire staff. how do you think that responds to the general public?

Do you carry a gun on the job and does your employer know? How often do you go to the gun range? Do you keep a lock box in the ambulance which can not be removed easily? Do you carry the gun into the hospitals and other public places where CCW are not usually allowed?

hahahaha, do I? I don't even own a handgun. I don't have a CCW permit. If I did have both, would i want to carry on the ambulance? absolutely. note: I am not saying I would, just that I would want to.

if I did how often would I draw it? not unless it was an imminent life threat. and the only place I could take remove it would be places where law enforcement was not allow to bring theirs (jails, court, secure psych facilities, etc). and if I was doing my job right, no one would know i had it on me, unless I needed to draw it to save a life or defuse a threat to my life. and yes, if my employer were to discipline me for it, that is his prerogative, but at least I will be going home to my wife

 

[JPINFV]

Facebook cannot literally stab you or choke you until you die.

...and paramedics getting stabbed and chocked is, by far, a minority of the assaults that occur. However, the pro-CCW crowd (and, for the record, I'm for "shall-issue" laws) equate any and all assaults, regardless of the circumstances including contributing disease pathology to an immediate threat to the life of the provider.


...and yes... I don't have the requested faith in the average EMS provider to believe that some patient with an altered mental status (be it psych, biochemical, trauma, tox, etc) isn't going to get shot for not going with the program. If I can't trust the average EMS provider with RSI, why would I trust them with a firearm?

 

[RocketMedic]

...and paramedics getting stabbed and chocked is, by far, a minority of the assaults that occur. However, the pro-CCW crowd (and, for the record, I'm for "shall-issue" laws) equate any and all assaults, regardless of the circumstances including contributing disease pathology to an immediate threat to the life of the provider.


...and yes... I don't have the requested faith in the average EMS provider to believe that some patient with an altered mental status (be it psych, biochemical, trauma, tox, etc) isn't going to get shot for not going with the program. If I can't trust the average EMS provider with RSI, why would I trust them with a firearm?

I dont particularly care about the disease pathology of someone trying to hurt or kill me. If I can identify and correct that pathology, cool. But once you try and hurt or kill me, Im operating in self-preservation mode, not help mode.

 

[JPINFV]

I dont particularly care about the disease pathology of someone trying to hurt or kill me. If I can identify and correct that pathology, cool. But once you try and hurt or kill me, Im operating in self-preservation mode, not help mode.

So you have no qualms about shooting a patient with a brain injury who is resisting you? You'll shoot a psych patient who is combative? After all, if they try to hurt you, you're automatically in self-preservation mode, right?