concealed weapon carry

[mycrofft]

CCW does not equal armed at work.

Just to surface for a moment:

Anyone note that this is NOT a CCW concern? Law enforcement gets CCW so they can be armed and responsive 24/7 because they have a duty to respond 24/7. Having a firearm on your uniform belt does not require nor will it give you the permit to carry loaded guns, concealed or otherwise, around on your off time.

As I noted last year or sometime ago, most LE is wise to dodges to get a CCW permit (becoming a "coroner's deputy" is an old and venerable if useless one, same for most "bodyguard" applications).

If you want to argue about right to carry, get out of your chairs, right now, strap on your holster or get out your rifle, load your weapon, carry it in plain sight (no "CCW" necessary, right?) then walk one mile out and one mile back in a commercial or retail district and see what happens. GO by an elementary school if possible. Stop by and go inside McDonald's. Drive with it on the front passenger seat and bust a stop sign and see the reaction when pulled over. "Put the rubber on the road" for this discussion and report back.

 

[mycrofft]

If you see "Jason" coming at you in a house by surprise with a shotgun, chain-saw, ice pick or Q-tip, I doubt if you will be able to get your concealed weapon out quick enough or with enough skill to do any good.

Maybe you should take an EMS self defense class and see more realistic and practical scenarios which actually could be of some use. You also should avoid watching scary movies before a shift. The real world can be scary and there are situations which require being alert and using your head for altenatives rather than imagining Jason is lurking behind every corner.

There are also many situations where it would just be stupid to carry a gun such as in places where there are combusibles and explosive materials or in crowds.

Responded to an old victorian house at night with a rapist/knife murderer at large, no idea if he was still there after raping/killing one woman then chasing her housemate through the building stabbing her in the back. (He turned out to be about a mile away trying to hitch a ride, still had knife, had gotten dressed without washing off blood).We all had dilated pupils and feelers on our backs.

Arming the two ambulance and three ALS people (and about eight firefighters) as well as deputies and police would not have been good.

 

[MrJones]

I always enjoy these "carry concealed/don't carry concealed" discussions, regardless of the context. My bottom line - if you're doing it right, no one will ever know that you're carrying. They shouldn't even know if you're licensed to do so.

 

[RocketMedic]

I rarely agree with MrJones, but I will here.

Clipper1 and ak, if I meet Jason, at least one person is getting hurt, possibly more, before help arrives. A well-used gun may make that person him, not me.

akflightmedic, would you go unarmed on an all-Afghan fob that is unfamiliar to you with no immediate support? what about the countryside? would you expect a 68w to? After all, they arent trained like true infantry, right, and may take bad shots.

 

[RocketMedic]

Just to surface for a moment:

Anyone note that this is NOT a CCW concern? Law enforcement gets CCW so they can be armed and responsive 24/7 because they have a duty to respond 24/7. Having a firearm on your uniform belt does not require nor will it give you the permit to carry loaded guns, concealed or otherwise, around on your off time.

As I noted last year or sometime ago, most LE is wise to dodges to get a CCW permit (becoming a "coroner's deputy" is an old and venerable if useless one, same for most "bodyguard" applications).

If you want to argue about right to carry, get out of your chairs, right now, strap on your holster or get out your rifle, load your weapon, carry it in plain sight (no "CCW" necessary, right?) then walk one mile out and one mile back in a commercial or retail district and see what happens. GO by an elementary school if possible. Stop by and go inside McDonald's. Drive with it on the front passenger seat and bust a stop sign and see the reaction when pulled over. "Put the rubber on the road" for this discussion and report back.

This depends on your state. CA has some fairly asinine law, Oklahoma less so. This is actually completely legal in Arizona or Alaska, and in most of the nation with a valid CCW. Most CCWs are shall-issue, meaning you need no justification for it. Here, most of my patients have firearms in the home, vehicle, or on them.

 

[CFal]

In I'm currently in you don't even need a concealed weapons permit to carry concealed.

 

[Clipper1]

I always enjoy these "carry concealed/don't carry concealed" discussions, regardless of the context. My bottom line - if you're doing it right, no one will ever know that you're carrying. They shouldn't even know if you're licensed to do so.

Your employer and all who partner with you should be aware of you carrying a gun. Your employer should have a say if they want to be responssible for your actions. If there are rules in place against carrying a gun on the job, you have to right to seek other employment. Good luck trying to draw unemployment while looking for another job. If you are knowingly violating state concealed weapon laws by entering a no carry zone like a hospital or whatever public arena, you should be held accountable and face whatever penalties. We have a zero tolerance policy for those who think they can carry a gun on our ambulances, aircrafts or hospitals if they are not on duty law enforcement. Even with on duty law enforcement there are rules which apply for certain situations and areas regarding their weapon.

Your partner should have the right to refuse to be with you if they feel you are not trained adequately or have the temperment to be carrying a weapon. They may fear you more than any "Jason" character.


Usually those who are the most pro for carrying a weapon on an ambulance without acknowledging any negatives are the ones who should not carry a weapon at all.

 

[Clipper1]

This depends on your state. CA has some fairly asinine law, Oklahoma less so. This is actually completely legal in Arizona or Alaska, and in most of the nation with a valid CCW. Most CCWs are shall-issue, meaning you need no justification for it. Here, most of my patients have firearms in the home, vehicle, or on them.

Post your employer's policy for you carrying a weapon while working as an EMT or Paramedic. Also post the insurance carrier which okays this and provides coverage. Does the insurance or the union promise to get you an attorney when you shoot someone? You had better check these policies very closely.

 

[MrJones]

...Usually those who are the most pro for carrying a weapon on an ambulance without acknowledging any negatives are the ones who should not carry a weapon at all.

Consider yourself challenged: Provide empirical proof to substantiate this claim.

 

[RocketMedic]

Post your employer's policy for you carrying a weapon while working as an EMT or Paramedic. Also post the insurance carrier which okays this and provides coverage. Does the insurance or the union promise to get you an attorney when you shoot someone? You had better check these policies very closely.

I do not carry at work for this reason, PPI WOULD TERMINATE my employment. However, why should I cede my right to self-defense in favor of a criminal complaint against an attacker? According to PPI, no force or minimal force can be used to protect yourself. The policy is vague for a reason- questionable actions = termination. Complaints or lawsuits = termination. Legislation to allow EMS providers to carry would remove liability from the employer. As for insurance, most CCWs do not have it. We do not shoot random people, we are literally only to shoot to stop immediate life threats. When Im carrying, I will gladly sacrifice my wallet and truck to escape. My backpack? Sure. Shoes, phone, gun? No. The next step in that chain is murder.

My state also has a law that immunizes me from civil and criminal complaints levied by criminals for damages incurred during the commission of a crime. Other states do not. A ccw shooting is always reviewed by law enforcement.

Whats your answer when a crew is murdered? "Whoops, sorry?" "Its a risk?"

Why not use OSHAs general-duty clause to mandate an armed guard on every truck?

 

[Bullets]

In I'm currently in you don't even need a concealed weapons permit to carry concealed.

You don't have to rub it in Vermont....

Utah has unlicensed open carry

When I was in college, I walked to the gun shop, bought a M1 Carbine and openly carried it back to the fraternity through the town square and campus. One cop stopped us, only because he was interested in also buying an M1 carbine and wanted to talk to us about it. We went back to the house and talked shop about the rifle for a while, no issues

If I did that in NJ, I'd get shot by the cops

depends on your local laws and attitudes

I know our agency has no policy on concealed carry, but that's because NJ doesn't issue ccw permits

 

[Clipper1]

Consider yourself challenged: Provide empirical proof to substantiate this claim.

Just read the posts here and you will see enough to substantiate that. You have some who are want to have a shoot out in a meth lab. Some want to go down fighting. Some who use the word asault loosely. Some who disrespect the polices of their employer. You have a few who would ignor NO CARRY zones. Some also believe the CCW training of a couple hours is adequate and then you have some places where that is not even required to carry a gun.

The total lack of consistency in training, state laws and availabilty of guns make this dicussion on the same level as discussing the many different certs in EMS. If EMS can not agree on what to call the levels and how much training for each, this gun issue is out of reach for any agreement also.

It is also interesting to see the change in arguments through the years. Not that long ago there were a lot of Public Safety Officers who did a duel role of Police and Paramedic. Those who liked the medical side thought it was a conflict of interest to carry both a gun and a stethoscope in civilian life. Believe it or not we had the same violent acts a few years ago and even 50 years ago. The only difference is the internet gets the news out faster and every media outlet wants to out do the others in headlines. Now it seems the patient is forgotten in all of these pro gun arguments.

Commonsense would say you will be of no use to the patient if you and only your partner are engaging in a gun battle with someone. Get the need help first before trying to get yourself, your partner and the patient killed. If you escalate the situation it will not end well. Some pro gun arguments presented here are like saying the 15 seconds you saved by running through a red light doing 60 mph at a busy intersection will save a life.

 

[DrParasite]

I do not carry at work for this reason, PPI WOULD TERMINATE my employment.

as would many other places

However, why should I cede my right to self-defense in favor of a criminal complaint against an attacker? According to PPI, no force or minimal force can be used to protect yourself. The policy is vague for a reason- questionable actions = termination. Complaints or lawsuits = termination.

in case you didn't get your employers message, you are the least important thing. if the public attacks you, you can't fight back (the public is more important than you). if the anyone files a complaint or lawsuit, you are immediately terminated (they would rather maintain the relationship with the public than you, even if you are right). Anything "questionable" happens, and you are terminated. See, PPI would rather you get hurt or killed than you defend yourself against a person who would do you harm; after all, you are replaceable, and they need the public's favor to stay in business. how is that for a warm and tingly?

My state also has a law that immunizes me from civil and criminal complaints levied by criminals for damages incurred during the commission of a crime. Other states do not. A ccw shooting is always reviewed by law enforcement.

that's awesome. and ANY shooting (whether CCW or not) should be reviewed by law enforcement. hell, any shooting by law enforcement is reviewed by law enforcement.

Whats your answer when a crew is murdered? "Whoops, sorry?" "Its a risk?"

that's the attitude that many agencies have to crews getting assaulted: "it's just part of and a risk of the job." some places won't even allow crews to file charges against the attacker.

 

[DrParasite]

Your partner should have the right to refuse to be with you if they feel you are not trained adequately or have the temperment to be carrying a weapon. They may fear you more than any "Jason" character.

If I can't refuse to be with my partner because they are an idiot when it comes to EMS, how can you justify refusing to work with someone because they don't have the right temperament to carry a weapon?

and as a side note, i know quite a few cops that don't have the temperament to carry weapons, and yet they are still law enforcement officers. I am still not sure how they passed the psych exam to become cops

 

[Bullets]

The total lack of consistency in training, state laws and availabilty of guns make this dicussion on the same level as discussing the many different certs in EMS. If EMS can not agree on what to call the levels and how much training for each, this gun issue is out of reach for any agreement also.

The problem i have with using the police as the bar for training is that is see these cops everyday, as i work for the police department. 95% of these guys dont own other firearms, dont shoot outside of the two qualification shoots a year, and couldnt care less about firearms. The training and testing is laughable.

This isnt a reasonable argument. Police training varies almost as widely from state to state as EMS training does, even within the state between municipal and state agencies. Would you would suggest that a NJ officer is more of a cop then a NC officer, despite the NJ officer having twice as much training.

1000 rounds, a 20 minute test and a day of training on "Use of Force" policy is not sufficient to certify someone to carry and use a firearm, yet we put officers on the street with this level of training everyday. Citizen CCW owners put far more rounds through their weapons then our departments average officer.

It should be the same training for cops and CCW holders

 

[Clipper1]

If I can't refuse to be with my partner because they are an idiot when it comes to EMS, how can you justify refusing to work with someone because they don't have the right temperament to carry a weapon?

If you are knowingly breaking a company policy as well as local or state laws for carrying a concealed weapon while on duty, your partner should not have to suffer the consequences of your actions. If you are bragging about shooting people for no reason except maybe the color of their skin or that they live in the wrong neighborhood or you are pulling your weapon on every medical call because you saw a Friday the 13th rerun the night before, yes your partner has every right to fear working with you.

 

[DrParasite]

If you are knowingly breaking a company policy as well as local or state laws for carrying a concealed weapon while on duty, your partner should not have to suffer the consequences of your actions. If you are bragging about shooting people for no reason except maybe the color of their skin or that they live in the wrong neighborhood or you are pulling your weapon on every medical call because you saw a Friday the 13th rerun the night before, yes your partner has every right to fear working with you.

show of hands: how many CCW permit holders "brag about shooting people for no reason except maybe the color of their skin"? Hmmm.

how many people "are pulling your weapon on every medical call because you saw a Friday the 13th rerun the night before"? hmmm.

i don't see many hands being raised. do you?

 

[truetiger]

I keep seeing this argument about people pulling their gun on every medical call, some of you act like armed medics will be pulling their weapons out all the time. As someone has already said, many of you are around ccw holders every day without ever knowing it, obviously they aren't pulling their weapons daily.

 

[Clipper1]

The problem i have with using the police as the bar for training is that is see these cops everyday, as i work for the police department. 95% of these guys dont own other firearms, dont shoot outside of the two qualification shoots a year, and couldnt care less about firearms. The training and testing is laughable.

This isnt a reasonable argument. Police training varies almost as widely from state to state as EMS training does, even within the state between municipal and state agencies. Would you would suggest that a NJ officer is more of a cop then a NC officer, despite the NJ officer having twice as much training.

1000 rounds, a 20 minute test and a day of training on "Use of Force" policy is not sufficient to certify someone to carry and use a firearm, yet we put officers on the street with this level of training everyday. Citizen CCW owners put far more rounds through their weapons then our departments average officer.

It should be the same training for cops and CCW holders

Citizen CCW owners do more than a 1000 rounds? Many will also not do more than that in a life time of owning a weapon. CCWs are easily obtained in some states after a 4 hour class at a gun show. Some might require hands on and some don't.

If your law enforcement are as poorly trained as you are saying, maybe it is better to start getting them up to a decent level before trying to hand out CCWs to every joe smo on the street just like EMS should get its levels consistent before adding more alphabet.

 

[Aidey]

I keep seeing this argument about people pulling their gun on every medical call, some of you act like armed medics will be pulling their weapons out all the time. As someone has already said, many of you are around ccw holders every day without ever knowing it, obviously they aren't pulling their weapons daily.

I've already pointed out we are not talking about the general public dealing with other people in the general public. Some of the most questionable situations involving mentally altered patients at my agency have also involved the people that would be the first to carry on the job if they could. I have no doubt that some of those patients would have ended up shot, and in all the cases the provider came out fine, without needing a gun.