Caught on camera: Firefighter draws gun on driver at highway scene in North Carolina

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DrParasite

DrParasite

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I work in an urban area with a high per capita violent crime rate. I’ve seen my share of shootings, stabbings, and assaults. I’ve been on hot scenes. I’ve been in scenes when shots have been fired. I’ve been on scenes when you can still smell gunpowder in the air. I’ve been in scenes were all of a sudden all the cops had their guns out, and I’ve wrestled violent people to the ground.

The number of times that I wished I had a gun on me = 0
cool... what's your point? You don't wish you had been armed... and I would never force you to carry if you didn't want to. Just like off duty, if you choose not to carry, I'm cool with that. Some might prefer they be armed, and all would hope and pray they never need to draw their weapon.
I've worked in the boons for eight years now, I still have no interest in carrying a gun.
That's cool... I am not going to advocate you do something you have no interest in. But just because you have no interest, what about someone else who does? especially someone who carries 24/7?
If someone pulls a weapon on you in their house, your attempt at producing your CCW stands a good chance of getting you killed.
Umm... no... that's... wrong... However, I might be incorrect... can you provide any hard evidence that supports your illogical claim?

I'll even provide an example of when a paramedic had to pull his CCW to save his and his partner's life when a person pulled a weapon on them:
 

ffemt8978

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cool... what's your point? You don't wish you had been armed... and I would never force you to carry if you didn't want to. Just like off duty, if you choose not to carry, I'm cool with that. Some might prefer they be armed, and all would hope and pray they never need to draw their weapon.

That's cool... I am not going to advocate you do something you have no interest in. But just because you have no interest, what about someone else who does? especially someone who carries 24/7?

Umm... no... that's... wrong... However, I might be incorrect... can you provide any hard evidence that supports your illogical claim?

I'll even provide an example of when a paramedic had to pull his CCW to save his and his partner's life when a person pulled a weapon on them:
There are examples for both sides of the issue. Are we willing to accept a blanket policy based upon one person's experiences and beliefs?
 
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DrParasite

DrParasite

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So let me make sure I understand you:
However, off-duty I have no duty to respond, don't deal with sick people who may be altered, don't stop on the side of the highway, don't go into random houses, and don't interact with random people in confined spaces for any length of time and if for some reason I'm uncomfortable, or the person I'm talking to starts acting strange, I can just leave. The situations I would find myself in-duty and off-duty are completely different and if they're not, I made some pretty stupid mistakes to get there.
You carry 24/7 while off duty, and you avoid potentially dangerous situations and have no duty to respond, yet you state that you can't avoid them while on duty, have a duty to respond, and occasionally are involved in potentially dangerous situations while on duty, but carrying a weapon to defend yourself is foolish. Do I have that right?
I'm not saying that either. What I am saying is that if start allowing EMS to carry firearms, people are going to make stupid decisions, as is demonstrated by this situation.
people make stupid decisions all the time. sometimes their stupid decisions result in them calling EMS. But that's an individual who makes a stupid decision; we don't judge everyone by one person's stupid decision. and if we would, it's that stereotyping?
We have people in this field who get irrationally offended when they are called an "ambulance driver," do you really think that allowing these people to carry a weapon on-duty is a good idea?
Your comparing apples and pineapples. People get offended by the term ambulance driver, but no one is going to pull a firearm as a result of it happening...
I also never stated that we should be doing the job of the police, so I'm not sure where that statement comes from. I'm simply saying that if people trained in lethal force, laws, etc (the police) are still screwing things up, why would putting a gun into the hands of EMS/FD, who doesn't do any training on lethal force, laws, etc, be a good idea?
ok, that's a fair point... you're a CCW holder, who carries 24/7... if people trained in lethal force, laws, etc (the police) are still screwing things up, why would putting a gun into the hands of random people, who don't do any training on lethal force, laws be a good idea? Based on your own statement, you shouldn't be permitted to carry a firearm.
I've certainly never done anything as stupid as pointing it at someone who committed a traffic violation. Whenever I get into a situation where the potential I may need to draw my gun, I simply leave. It's not that difficult.
two things: 1) the questions of if you had ever drawn a gun on a person who committed a traffic violation was never asked. the question was in response to your statement of "Give them a gun, and stupid stuff will happen" what stupid stuff have you done since you are a gun carrier?

2) "Whenever I get into a situation where the potential I may need to draw my gun, I simply leave" good answer... so why even bother carrying then? if you are going to leave before you need the gun, every time, than you have no need to even carry it. right? and yet, you still carry 24/7... do you see the mixed message?
 

Tigger

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cool... what's your point? You don't wish you had been armed... and I would never force you to carry if you didn't want to. Just like off duty, if you choose not to carry, I'm cool with that. Some might prefer they be armed, and all would hope and pray they never need to draw their weapon.

That's cool... I am not going to advocate you do something you have no interest in. But just because you have no interest, what about someone else who does? especially someone who carries 24/7?

Umm... no... that's... wrong... However, I might be incorrect... can you provide any hard evidence that supports your illogical claim?

I'll even provide an example of when a paramedic had to pull his CCW to save his and his partner's life when a person pulled a weapon on them:
I think the whole n=1 thing applies here...not to mention that both of them were shot. I am going to defer to DT4EMS on this one, I tend to accept the teachings of a guy who has spent his whole life studying and teaching self defense to EMS providers over a guy that would argue that the color of the sky with you. Weapons don't work in EMS confontrations, making a vacuum between you and the former patient does. Reaching for a gun or whatever weapon is a great way to incentive your attacker to harm you.

There are examples for both sides of the issue. Are we willing to accept a blanket policy based upon one person's experiences and beliefs?
I am willing to accept a blanket policy that does not ensure a gun is brought to every scene, sure. Let's go back to the original video, where a blanket policy of fire and EMS providers not carrying guns would have prevented this entire thing.
 
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DrParasite

DrParasite

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I think the whole n=1 thing applies here...not to mention that both of them were shot. I am going to defer to DT4EMS on this one, I tend to accept the teachings of a guy who has spent his whole life studying and teaching self defense to EMS providers over a guy that would argue that the color of the sky with you. Weapons don't work in EMS confontrations, making a vacuum between you and the former patient does. Reaching for a gun or whatever weapon is a great way to incentive your attacker to harm you.
When you talk about DT4EMS, are you referring to Kip (the original founder, former LEO, martial arts instructor, paramedic, etc), or Jason (the new owner with a ton of experience in EMS)? Both are cool guys, but they have different backgrounds. Also, remember, they are teaching classes to agencies, and not saying that they should give everyone a firearm.

And I don't think either of them said if someone pulls a gun on you, you are more likely to get shot if you pull your own gun. But if they want to prove me wrong, I'm willing to listen.
I am willing to accept a blanket policy that does not ensure a gun is brought to every scene, sure. Let's go back to the original video, where a blanket policy of fire and EMS providers not carrying guns would have prevented this entire thing.
So that's based on your opinion... what makes your opinion any more valid than mine? And for the record, I haven't given my opinion on if I think paramedics should be armed, only provided factual information about the topic and asked questions of those who carry 24/7 except on the ambulance.

I am not going to dispute that having such a policy would have prevented this entire thing... are you going to dispute that we would have two dead paramedics had the pine bluff Arkansas paramedic not pulled his own gun in self-defense? I mean, it's not like drawing his weapon put the paramedics in any more risk...

We can just pretend that paramedics are never shot, but it did near me as per the local news:
 

Tigger

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When you talk about DT4EMS, are you referring to Kip (the original founder, former LEO, martial arts instructor, paramedic, etc), or Jason (the new owner with a ton of experience in EMS)? Both are cool guys, but they have different backgrounds. Also, remember, they are teaching classes to agencies, and not saying that they should give everyone a firearm.
And I don't think either of them said if someone pulls a gun on you, you are more likely to get shot if you pull your own gun. But if they want to prove me wrong, I'm willing to listen.

So that's based on your opinion... what makes your opinion any more valid than mine? And for the record, I haven't given my opinion on if I think paramedics should be armed, only provided factual information about the topic and asked questions of those who carry 24/7 except on the ambulance.

I am not going to dispute that having such a policy would have prevented this entire thing... are you going to dispute that we would have two dead paramedics had the pine bluff Arkansas paramedic not pulled his own gun in self-defense? I mean, it's not like drawing his weapon put the paramedics in any more risk...

We can just pretend that paramedics are never shot, but it did near me as per the local news:
🥱
 

ffemt8978

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I am willing to accept a blanket policy that does not ensure a gun is brought to every scene, sure. Let's go back to the original video, where a blanket policy of fire and EMS providers not carrying guns would have prevented this entire thing.
So would have a policy preventing fire or EMS from going to any accident scene until law enforcement arrives. The problem with policies is that they don't actually prevent situations like this...they just provide justification for punishment if they are violated.
 

Tigger

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So would have a policy preventing fire or EMS from going to any accident scene until law enforcement arrives. The problem with policies is that they don't actually prevent situations like this...they just provide justification for punishment if they are violated.
Pointing a gun at a motorist that committed a traffic violation is indeed something that should be punished by the agency. Not to mention that policy with clearly spelled out progressive discipline is certainly a deterrent.
 

ffemt8978

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Pointing a gun at a motorist that committed a traffic violation is indeed something that should be punished by the agency. Not to mention that policy with clearly spelled out progressive discipline is certainly a deterrent.
Agreed, but that is different than your statement that a blanket policy ensures no guns are brought to every scene.
 

FiremanMike

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The interesting thing to me about the flow of this conversation is that there is VERY LITTLE objective data available because there are VERY FEW fire/ems personnel concealed carrying. So we are left with opinions and attempting to extrapolate from the small amount of data that we have, which is then immediately disregarded because it is opinion and extrapolation from a small dataset..
 

medichopeful

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So let me make sure I understand you:

You carry 24/7 while off duty, and you avoid potentially dangerous situations and have no duty to respond, yet you state that you can't avoid them while on duty, have a duty to respond, and occasionally are involved in potentially dangerous situations while on duty, but carrying a weapon to defend yourself is foolish. Do I have that right?

people make stupid decisions all the time. sometimes their stupid decisions result in them calling EMS. But that's an individual who makes a stupid decision; we don't judge everyone by one person's stupid decision. and if we would, it's that stereotyping?

Your comparing apples and pineapples. People get offended by the term ambulance driver, but no one is going to pull a firearm as a result of it happening...

ok, that's a fair point... you're a CCW holder, who carries 24/7... if people trained in lethal force, laws, etc (the police) are still screwing things up, why would putting a gun into the hands of random people, who don't do any training on lethal force, laws be a good idea? Based on your own statement, you shouldn't be permitted to carry a firearm.

two things: 1) the questions of if you had ever drawn a gun on a person who committed a traffic violation was never asked. the question was in response to your statement of "Give them a gun, and stupid stuff will happen" what stupid stuff have you done since you are a gun carrier?

2) "Whenever I get into a situation where the potential I may need to draw my gun, I simply leave" good answer... so why even bother carrying then? if you are going to leave before you need the gun, every time, than you have no need to even carry it. right? and yet, you still carry 24/7... do you see the mixed message?
Why such an argumentative, demeaning tone?
 
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DrParasite

DrParasite

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Why such an argumentative, demeaning tone?
not demeaning at all... argumentative, maybe, but only because you're giving conflicting/confusing information, hence my request for clarification.
 

CarSevenFour

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"Can someone help me identify this man ? Yesterday on 74/76 , I was in a confrontation with another fireman (I wish I had a photo of him) & then was threatened by this fireman with a gun pointed at my car . When the State Trooper arrived , he told me it was nothing he could do bc he didn’t see anything & told me to file a report . This is passed a report & was not addressed correctly . When did Firemen become police and pull guns on people ? This is Columbus County Acme-Delco Fire Department btw . UPDATE : Thank you for helping me identify him ." (redacted firefighter's name-74)--from the video post.

Well, firefighters do routinely carry firearms, fire investigators working in the Fire Prevention Bureau, for instance. Ours were issued .38 Special short barrel revolvers in ankle holsters. They took their firearm and LE training with the city PD and had police powers as well but retained firefighter status.
 

CCCSD

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Incorrect. SOME, those qualified, carried a firearm issued by the Agency. They attended training required by the State of California so that they could have Peace Officer status, as required by their job classification.
 

jgmedic

Fire Truck Driver
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"Can someone help me identify this man ? Yesterday on 74/76 , I was in a confrontation with another fireman (I wish I had a photo of him) & then was threatened by this fireman with a gun pointed at my car . When the State Trooper arrived , he told me it was nothing he could do bc he didn’t see anything & told me to file a report . This is passed a report & was not addressed correctly . When did Firemen become police and pull guns on people ? This is Columbus County Acme-Delco Fire Department btw . UPDATE : Thank you for helping me identify him ." (redacted firefighter's name-74)--from the video post.

Well, firefighters do routinely carry firearms, fire investigators working in the Fire Prevention Bureau, for instance. Ours were issued .38 Special short barrel revolvers in ankle holsters. They took their firearm and LE training with the city PD and had police powers as well but retained firefighter status.
So qualified Fire Investigators carry firearms? That's a far cry from saying firefighters routinely carry firearms.
 

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