Bystander Denied Access to Ambulance - Legal Issues?

GrahamPSA

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Hi all!

My brother and I were unfortunate enough to witness a traffic collision just outside of Anaheim after leaving a Christmas event.

My brother has a certificate in EMT back from university and is quite knowledgeable on the care of trauma wounds. When we saw the collision he jumped into action and began treating the person quite well.

The ambulance arrived shortly and thanked him for what he did and told him he did a good job. He offered to sit in the back of the ambulance as they rushed the victim off to the hospital to assist them with the treatment. The crew told him that whilst they appreciated his help it would be illegal for them to let him come alone as there is policy against letting civilians help.

Is this true? I find the legal side of these things very interesting and am planning on doing a beginners law course soon and would love to specialize in this.

So for you paramedics out there, is it lawful for you to let a civilian join in the emergency treatment of a patient whilst the patient is under your care? If it is lawful, what happens if the civilian makes an error whilst the patient is legally underneath your duty of care? Who gets the blame?

Thanks all! And thank you all so much for the service you provide!
 

medicdan

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In general, they EMTs or Medics were right. Everything that happens in the back of the ambulance is the responsibility of the treating EMT/Medic, and if your brother did anything grossly wrong or had any malicious intent it wouldn't be good for the tech. It's also for your brother's safety-- If he had an unprotected exposure to a needle or bodily fluids, the ambulance service couldnt (and shouldn't) be liable. If the ambulance get's into an accident, they don't want to be responsible for your brother as well. It's best for the tech to worry about the safety of only their patient, and not a bystander as well.

If the EMS system is properly designed, the tech in the back should be able to get some help if they need it-- whether that means from a second ambulance (ALS or BLS), fire department driving (so his partner can join in), firefighter in the back, police, supervisor, etc. All of the above are properly placed for liability if something were to happen.

I'm sure the treating crew was happy to get your brother's help before they arrived, and a smooth transfer of care, but frankly, once that crew takes control of the scene, I sense that an uncertified Good Samaritan sticking around may be getting in the way.
 

epipusher

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Not to mention, how would they know if he really is an EMT. Showing a card or not, I wouldn't be able to trust him. I would have done the same, thank him for his help and send him on his way.
 

medicdan

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Not to mention, how would they know if he really is an EMT. Showing a card or not, I wouldn't be able to trust him. I would have done the same, thank him for his help and send him on his way.

It doesn't even matter if he is an EMT... in order to work, we need to be under the indirect supervision of a medical director, and unless your brother works for the same service, an off-duty EMT is an off-duty EMT, with no SOP or DTA.

Another element I forgot to mention is confidentiality-- your brother is under no commitment to maintain patient confidentiality, and shouldn't be placed in a situation where he could have access to sensitive medical information-- such as in the back of the ambulance.
 

WuLabsWuTecH

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Where I am, the only people allowed on board are a physician (with a physician card) or a paramedic (when we are running as a squad) under his own protocols. Either are free to use whatever they want out of our rig, but the medic must follow his own protocol and make do with the drugs we have (and can't use drugs not on his own protocol). The physician can do whatever the heck he wants so long as he takes responsibility for the patient.
 

Shishkabob

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Is it illegal for a civilian to help / ride in the ambulance? No.

Is it against company policy for the civilian to help while riding in the ambulance? Most likely.

Would I allow someone I just met to work on my patient after I arrived, when I can't verify who they are? Nope. While on scene, if a civilian is being helpful and I have no other real help, yes I can enlist them, and have. Civilians are great lift assists. Once in the truck, it's only trained medical providers touching the patient.




If I need a rider, I get a firefighter.
 
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JPINFV

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Unless you're truly out in the sticks (and assuming you're talking about Anaheim, CA, you're about as far from that as you can get) or in a disaster/extremely large MCI situation, I can't see any reason to take a non-physician civilian from a scene on an ambulance to the hospital as an extra set of hands.
 

themooingdawg

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I would say liability alone would warrant him not being allowed riding in the back, especially with how the patient is presenting as you said and is probably in critical condition. A lot of stuff happens in the back of an ambulance in a critical trauma call, and there probably isn't going to be a lot of things that your brother could've done in the back that the EMT or another firefighter riding in the back couldn't do. Obviously your brother helped in the initial assessment when the medics arrived on scene, giving quick scene size up, what happened, the mechanism, etc. But that pretty much ends there as far as pt treatment goes for him; I personally wouldn't take it as a bad thing, they obviously acknowledged your brothers help and thanked him, thats as much a good samaritan can do at that point.
 

MMiz

I put the M in EMTLife
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I've updated the thread title to make it more relevant and descriptive.
 

Tigger

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I appreciate the help of bystanders on scene. That said, if a stranger to the victim has been rendering aid prior to arrival and then asks to ride in, that raises some red flags to me. I know most people's intentions are pure, but such a request just seems so out there that I would be a little worried about the care that the person would be provided, namely that they would probably be too excited for their own good.
 

BF2BC EMT

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Unless you're truly out in the sticks (and assuming you're talking about Anaheim, CA, you're about as far from that as you can get) or in a disaster/extremely large MCI situation, I can't see any reason to take a non-physician civilian from a scene on an ambulance to the hospital as an extra set of hands.

With protocol restriction down there you might as well have a civilian in the back;)
 

mycrofft

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Protocols and rules are not laws.

But there is nothing to say that there isn't a law against it.

Or, a protocol can be written by a legally constituted entity, such as an EMSA, so while no criminal act is committed, one could be cited professionally or civilly.

If it is a private company's ambulance, anyway, it is private property.

The ambulance crew acted properly. Any rancor on the part of the good samaritan art being denied the ride is unprofessional and immature.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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With protocol restriction down there you might as well have a civilian in the back;)
294168009_b25decaddf.jpg
 

Handsome Robb

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If I need a rider, I get a firefighter.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Like others said he will get a thank you then be sent on his way. I don't know or trust bystanders except in rare circumstances.

Again like other's said, it's not a law that I know of. However liability-wise it's a different story.
 

bstone

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A few years ago I was on a camping trip when a guy decided to stop breathing. I ran over and started ventilating with the BVM I kept in my car (no longer) until the local ambulance arrived. They informed me none of them were EMTs, just FF + CPR/AED. I rode with them to the ER even tho I was not part of their service. No one seemed to care.
 

mycrofft

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There you go, not illegal probably.

Good on you stone and good on them utilizing a bystander. Hope they gave you a ride back. I trust you would have taken it well if they declined your offer, after making them aware of how silly it would look to shut you out.

But a bystander and a fully qualified rig in an urban setting....
 
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bstone

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Good on you stone and good on them utilizing a bystander. Hope they gave you a ride back. I trust you would have taken it well if they declined your offer, after making them aware of how silly it would look to shut you out.

I always defer administration and control of an ambulance to the folks who are assigned to that ambulance. On the rare occasion that I might be able to offer something novel I make an offer of my assistance. The one time I was turned down (7-8 years ago, I think) I was gracious about it and faded away once they took over care.

But a bystander and a fully qualified rig in an urban setting....

In an urban setting they are most certainly in control. I've only ever offered this while way, way out in the sticks, sometimes 30 miles on dirt roads to the closest paved road, and then another 30 miles to an ER.
 

bstone

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I recall one time being on a camping trip when another guy decided to stop breathing (I'm a magnet for this stuff). The ambulance was an hour away, according to the state trooper who was at the scene. I was ventilating with my BVM and OPA in place when a guy with an SUV offered a ride for the PT. The trooper was all for it, so I asked the trooper to radio to the ambulance to stop in 30 minutes. The SUV owner put his backseat down and we proceeded with a trooper escort lights & sirens but low speed (to keep me, the random nurse who showed up and the PT from bouncing around in the back). 30 minutes later we saw the ambulance pulling over to the side of the road and coming to a stop just as we pulled up. T/F the PT and PT care to the local volly service and the SUV owner gave us a ride back to the camp site.

If you want to have a crazy-go-nuts experience like this then hang out with me when I go camping or self-deploy to disaster zones. I'm only 31 and got stories you'll never believe.
 
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