Bullet Proof Vests?

Rin said:
Sounds like an interesting story, you big tease!
Click to expand...
As you wish, it is sort of relevant I suppose.

Dispatched to a house way out in the middle of nowhere for an unknown illness call, dispatch recommends we take universal precautions as the caller is reporting large amounts of rat droppings. Arrive on scene to find two very agitated sheriff's deputies who advise us that, "this is it, I think he has it. He has the Ebola."

Wut.

Apparently the guy was a security contractor and had recently come back from Afghanistan. When he came home, he flew directly to Dulles airport. The deputies heard "Dallas Airport" and told me that there was no way he could fly direct from Afghanistan to Dallas, so he must have had a layover somewhere. The patient denied this, the deputies told him he was lying, and backed out, apparently fearing that his layover had been in Liberia or something so therefore he had Ebola. This is when we arrived.

I didn't buy the story but they were being idiots with their demeanor and yelling at me to take things seriously (I was struggling), so I grabbed the big duffel of PPE and suited/masked up. Suddenly they were no longer talking like they knew what they were doing. "Dude are you sure you need all that? I mean it's probably not that big of a deal right? There's no way we could have gotten it right?" Umm I don't know guys, I'm going to make contact and see what's up.

So I went inside up to his bedroom on the second floor and found the patient vomiting in the bathroom. There were several rifles in the bathtub with him (again wut, apparently that's where he was keeping them when while he had movers in the house). Now you have to understand, where I work I find guns in about every house I go to. A rifle or several is not a reason to leave the scene. So I got to talking to him and he gave me his story and how he thought he had food poisoning. However, when he finally turned to look at me he saw me in the suit and was apparently frightened and started yelling. At this time a loaded handgun fell out of his bathrobe. I'm not sure if he reached for it because I was booking it out of the house as fast as my a bit tight fitting Tyvek suit would let me.

There might be a lesson in there somewhere. But even if I had body armor, I would not have been wearing it because those suits are hot as hell. If I had an external carrier I still would have been wearing it because the deputies apparently did not notice the guns.

So yea, PPE. It'll get you killed.
 
My department issues ballistic vests upon request. They're level, IIB, mine weighs 6 lbs. If we request one, we are expected to wear it, although there is essentially zero enforcement.

We were initially only allowed to have internal carriers, after consultation with city police, who advised against externals. So we did that. Now we have a choice, and I no longer work that much in the city, often doing 48's in a rural site, so I wear an external.

I don't really notice it. Granted, a hot summer day here is maybe 32 C (90 F). Currently it's - 10 C ( 14 F), and we can hit - 40 C ( - 40 F) on a cold day. So, I don't find I overheat in it often. It doesn't affect my movement, and it weighs 6lbs. [*Corollary, one of the places I work gives out "trauma vests", that are knife-resistant, they have rigid hard plates, and seem to end up wedged in my trachea and limit my upper body mobility. I don't wear these.]

As many of you have identified there's a number of limitations with vests; they are designed to prevent against a limited number of calibers/rounds at a given threat level, if you try to protect against rifle rounds, they're extremely heavy and very impractical for most EMS work, they don't stop the more common threat of a knife, and the actual incidence of paramedics getting is very low. So there's a small benefit protecting against a rare risk. The risk for infectious disease, motor vehicle trauma, musculoskeletal injuries, PTSD, alcoholism/drug dependence, depression, etc. is far higher.

On the other hand, my employer offered me, a means to provide myself with limited protection against a real (albeit infrequent) risk in my line of work, after an OH&S assessment, and consultation with local police who were strongly supportive. I agree with the earlier poster, who said that violence is unpredictable, and agree that calls where law enforcement is already on scene are probably fairly low risk. As a result, I wear it on every call, along with my safety glasses. The small inconvenience of feeling slightly warm from time to time, and occasionally catching on stuff in hallways, in my opinion, is worth the insurance, even if the risk is low.

Body armour is threat mitigation. It's there for when everything else fails, and is a last resort, last line of protection with a fair failure rate. It's not a replacement for a safety culture, staging policy, situational judgment/awareness, defusing/descalation or avoidance. It's just another layer in the continuum.

I wouldn't judge anyone else for choosing to take advantage of a safety tool provided by their employer. I do agree that it's ridiculous to wear a vest if you don't carry your radio, or have good discipline with your PPE and scene assessment.
 
systemet said:
My department issues ballistic vests upon request. They're level, IIB, mine weighs 6 lbs. If we request one, we are expected to wear it, although there is essentially zero enforcement.

We were initially only allowed to have internal carriers, after consultation with city police, who advised against externals. So we did that. Now we have a choice, and I no longer work that much in the city, often doing 48's in a rural site, so I wear an external.

I don't really notice it. Granted, a hot summer day here is maybe 32 C (90 F). Currently it's - 10 C ( 14 F), and we can hit - 40 C ( - 40 F) on a cold day. So, I don't find I overheat in it often. It doesn't affect my movement, and it weighs 6lbs. [*Corollary, one of the places I work gives out "trauma vests", that are knife-resistant, they have rigid hard plates, and seem to end up wedged in my trachea and limit my upper body mobility. I don't wear these.]

As many of you have identified there's a number of limitations with vests; they are designed to prevent against a limited number of calibers/rounds at a given threat level, if you try to protect against rifle rounds, they're extremely heavy and very impractical for most EMS work, they don't stop the more common threat of a knife, and the actual incidence of paramedics getting is very low. So there's a small benefit protecting against a rare risk. The risk for infectious disease, motor vehicle trauma, musculoskeletal injuries, PTSD, alcoholism/drug dependence, depression, etc. is far higher.

On the other hand, my employer offered me, a means to provide myself with limited protection against a real (albeit infrequent) risk in my line of work, after an OH&S assessment, and consultation with local police who were strongly supportive. I agree with the earlier poster, who said that violence is unpredictable, and agree that calls where law enforcement is already on scene are probably fairly low risk. As a result, I wear it on every call, along with my safety glasses. The small inconvenience of feeling slightly warm from time to time, and occasionally catching on stuff in hallways, in my opinion, is worth the insurance, even if the risk is low.

Body armour is threat mitigation. It's there for when everything else fails, and is a last resort, last line of protection with a fair failure rate. It's not a replacement for a safety culture, staging policy, situational judgment/awareness, defusing/descalation or avoidance. It's just another layer in the continuum.

I wouldn't judge anyone else for choosing to take advantage of a safety tool provided by their employer. I do agree that it's ridiculous to wear a vest if you don't carry your radio, or have good discipline with your PPE and scene assessment.
Click to expand...

So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol
 
Chewy20 said:
So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol
Click to expand...

None. I started in EMS in 1997.

My employer issues a single pair of Oakley safety glasses a year, and we have carts with cheaper UVEX safety glasses all over the place. It's been a difficult change for me, but you only have to do so many GI bleed cardiac arrests, and get spat in the face so many times when the logic of it becomes resoundingly clear.

I'm trying to train myself to wear a face mask while intubating. This is more of a challenge, but just makes sense.
 
My agency has each new employee custom measured and custom made body armor. We have a policy in place that dictates when it is to be worn and this policy is stringently enforced not just by field supervisors, but peer enforced as well.
 
I live in Florida, so I would never wear body armor. If I wanted to wear bulky crap and sweat profusely, I would have gone the fire route rather than single-role EMS.
Maybe I'd consider it if I worked in a rough urban area someplace cold...
 
Chewy20 said:
So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol
Click to expand...
I wear safety glasses on most calls (or sunglasses). Our local city fire SOP is that they are worn on every call as well. No one has ever said a word, and I doubt I would care if they did.
 
I work in a crappy area of the county and I have never been worried about being shot or stabbed. In my experience, the medics who exclaim how dangerous the area is and how much we need vests are also the ones who try and prove how tough they are by yelling at psych or drunk patients to get them to behave.

Me, I'm a big softy with my patients, and I've never had issues with violence or non compliance, except with a couple drunks and guys on PCP.
But that's why we have Ketamine.

If you want to save lives in EMS, stop transporting 95% of patients with lights and sirens, institute some kind of fitness program, and crack down on roadside safety at incidents. Leave the vests to the PD and the military.
 
rescue1 said:
If you want to save lives in EMS, stop transporting 95% of patients with lights and sirens, institute some kind of fitness program, and crack down on roadside safety at incidents. Leave the vests to the PD and the military.
Click to expand...

I agree with this here for the most part. But as with everything else in EMS there are exceptions. The one I see here, is when you have units staging for things such as riots, for the simple reason, you easily could be sent in knowing the scene isn't entirely safe, and also, you never know if that scene may make it's way to you.
 
squirrel15 said:
I agree with this here for the most part. But as with everything else in EMS there are exceptions. The one I see here, is when you have units staging for things such as riots, for the simple reason, you easily could be sent in knowing the scene isn't entirely safe, and also, you never know if that scene may make it's way to you.
Click to expand...

Yeah there are certainly exceptions. SWAT medics, riot situations, etc. I was referring more to routine, everyday use.
 
you know, this topics comes up more often than you would think...... usually with no real ideas other than "if it isn't safe, I won't go into it, so I don't need a vest."

here is the truth: the vast majority of law enforcement officers will never be shot, never be shot at, and many will go their entire careers never needing to draw their firearm. And yet, for most of them, when they go out on patrol, they will always wear their vest, and carry their gun. In fact, most probably don't want to get shot at, but would be happy to be wearing their vests in case they do.

A vest is an insurance policy; you never want to need it, but should you need it, you want it to be there, because it does you no good in the truck when you are inside.

My former employer ran EMS for one of the most dangerous systems in the US, and worked in one of the most dangerous counties in NJ. I had coworkers who were assaulted on calls, and one crew that witnessed someone getting executed. I also have picture of ambulances with bullet holes in them. We were never issued vests, but some people did own their own and wore them under their uniforms.

Would I want vests to be mandated? absolutely not. Would I want to be issued a vest, and have the option of wearing it? if I worked in an urban city, absolutely. It won't make me superman, and I am not going to enter an unsafe scene. But scenes can go downhill quickly, just because the cops are there doesn't mean the scene is safe (their idea of scene safety and the EMS definition of scene safety differ a bit), and I want to give myself as much of a chance to go home at the end of every shift. and if I never need it to protect me, well, I can live with that too.

just my $0.02.
 
DrParasite said:
here is the truth: the vast majority of law enforcement officers will never be shot, never be shot at, and many will go their entire careers never needing to draw their firearm. And yet, for most of them, when they go out on patrol, they will always wear their vest, and carry their gun. In fact, most probably don't want to get shot at, but would be happy to be wearing their vests in case they do.

A vest is an insurance policy; you never want to need it, but should you need it, you want it to be there, because it does you no good in the truck when you are inside.
Click to expand...

I agree that if you're going to wear one it only makes sense to wear it all the time.

That said, I don't really see much comparison between us and law enforcement. Even though most cops will never be shot at, they are still far, far more likely to have that occur than EMS ever will be because our jobs do not have the same responsibilities.
 
I'm going to be working in Bed Stuy should I wear body armor underneath the whole time or have an external one to wear PRN?
 
adamNYC said:
I'm going to be working in Bed Stuy should I wear body armor underneath the whole time or have an external one to wear PRN?
Click to expand...
You should wear level 4 body armor at all times. After all you never know when you could get hit by a stray round.
 
I aint wearing plates eff outta here. Level II should be fine, concealable under uniform shirt.
 
Not looking like a cop and not pissing anyone off is much cheaper.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top