Arming EMT's and Paramedics

Most people do not have the mindset to carry a gun. It is a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. I spend more time training every year than most LEO's do.

So the question is, how many people are willing to do that?

Not to mention what do you do during an out of state LDT? I live in Indiana (literally 20-30 minute drive to Illinois or Kentucky) and Illinois doesnt recognize anyone's license. There would have to be a national recognized license like LEO's have to allow it, else you would have to disarm before entering. The less you handle a gun the safer it is, especially in front of a patient.

Then there is the insurance your provider would have to carry......

The list of reasons go on and on. Best to just remember scene safety and awareness
 
Just do what I do. I spray paint a banana black and if someone tries to mess with me I pull it out and point it at them like a gun. Then while they are laughing themselfs sick I run like hell.
 
bigbaldguy said:
Just do what I do. I spray paint a banana black and if someone tries to mess with me I pull it out and point it at them like a gun. Then while they are laughing themselfs sick I run like hell.
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holster_blk.gif


:huh:
 
I dont want to have to shoot someone then treat a gunshot wound. Defeat the purpose kinda
 
crazycajun said:
I have been in EMS since the 80's. I started in Downtown New Orleans La. I have been in more situations than you can imagine. We rolled up on scene as we have done many times in the past with no LE. Not a big deal as the gangsters know we are their only life line and the druggies know we are their only fix. The gangs here are Bloods and Crips. They have been here long before I arrived. I have also worked the same district for close to three years. My partner and I make a point to walk the neighborhoods when we get a chance. We stop and speak to just about anyone you could imagine and most people know us by first name. Even though we do not live in our district we make it a point to shop and eat there every chance we get. We work all of the street festivals we can and attend every school function we can. We often get requested by inmates at the local jails if they need transport to the hospital because they know they can trust us. We are also requested by many LEOS because they know how well we are liked in the area. I learned a long time ago from a very wise man. (My Father) Treat everyone as you would want to be treated. You also mention that my actions will get me killed one day and you may be correct. However, I could get killed walking to my mailbox. I strongly believe when it is your time it is just that. Your Time. That decision has been made and I cannot alter it so I will give all that I can to this job. I will help everyone I can and I will respect everyone I come across no matter their situation. I will hold someones hand or give them a shoulder to cry on if needed. I will listen to someone vent and I will laugh at someones corny joke. This job is not just about medicine it is about RESPECT. It is about CARING. And it is about UNDERSTANDING. Many people either forget this or never learn it. Many never take the time to meet the very people they are there to help. Many look down on those in hard times or those that have chosen the wrong path in life. I look at those same people and know that I am truly blessed to be able to help them.
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Well I applaude your reply and your people skills. I myself treat everyone with respect but have never had the desire what so ever to go out in my area such as your described. I can see how being that outgoing has led to benefit in your career.
 
CANMAN13 said:
Well I applaude your reply and your people skills. I myself treat everyone with respect but have never had the desire what so ever to go out in my area such as your described. I can see how being that outgoing has led to benefit in your career.
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Try and take some time and visit a little. I always try and go the extra mile. I keep a variety of stuffed animals and hot wheels at all times for kids I come across. We keep cold bottled water, fresh fruit and county giveaways (stickers, magnets and such) in stock. If I am riding down the street and see someone walking or working in the yard and they look like they are getting overheated I stop and give them a water, talk to them a bit to see how they are doing. We give homeless people fruit and water and the toys are for kids that we transport or that are upset because it is a relative that needs us and they are just scared. The county foots the bill for the supplies without question because of the good it does closing the gap in the community. However, if they didn't pay for the stuff, my partner and I would gladly pick up the tab. As I said just give it a try. You will be amazed at some of the stories you hear and the amount of medical information you get. You never know when the people you talk to will need you but it makes it a better experience if they know you.
 
Katrina sucked the life out of many
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At least 1,836 of them. It was a disaster all the way around with everyone involved having room to share the blame from FEMA to the victims themselves. There's a reason why the phrase "mandatory evacuation" was used. Outside of the few who literally could not evacuate to higher ground, most of those people signed their own death warrants by staying whether out of hubris, greed or just good ol' fashioned stupidity.

I dont want to have to shoot someone then treat a gunshot wound. Defeat the purpose kinda
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Mozambique drill them then. Make sure they are non-viable and you don't have to do anything of the sort.
 
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One of the cities in the state I live in mandates the paramedic wear a bullet proof vest. However can not see a paramedic carrying a weapon. I see it has job in EMS is treating the patient. If deadly force is warranted that judgement should be left to law enforcement. Instead implment procedures that are effective in regards to hostile patients.
 
There's something about guns...

The way I see it, once you carry a gun you impose a different filter on your consciousness.

You have it on you. It is there for your defense. It is there for you to use not "if" you need it, but "when". Doesn't even carrying one indicate that that is what you believe? If you really didn't think you'd ever need to use it, you simply would NOT carry one would you?

And that is the mind set that you go to work with. You're looking for the need on every call as PART of your scene assessment. Why? Because you're packing because you believe that ANY scene (any PATIENT!) could prompt you to use it.

Every situation now includes you having to run your experience through this filter. Not only about when or how you use it but also "Can the other guy get at it?" If that is NOT part of your awareness, then you shouldn't be packing.

A gun is designed to be a lethal weapon. This ADDS TO the amount of the consciousness that it occupies in the event you do find yourself in a situation with even POTENTIAL to be dangerous. Even the choice to defend yourself now includes "Do I take this life?"

That's a lot of added thinking you have to carry.

Now to active soldiers and cops, enough experience is available to draw on so that having one on you is no big deal. You really DO know your limits and boundaries, largely because they've been tested.

What I'd like you to ask yourself (those medics with little exposure to actually USING FIREARMS ON OTHER HUMAN BEINGS) is this: Could knowing you have a gun on your person mean that you might miss alternatives for peaceful resolution? After all, you're holding an "Ace" up your sleeve, and that's spelled P-O-W-E-R!

Carrying a gun does not simplify your life. For all but the most mature medics just its presence changes how they view themselves in relationship to every scene they encounter.

I offer all this fully recognizing that there are some call areas that, were I a medic in one, I WOULDN'T HESITATE TO give myself permission to add that complication to my life.

What irks me in threads of this nature is any indication of being casual about the subject.
 
WCSU1987 said:
One of the cities in the state I live in mandates the paramedic wear a bullet proof vest. However can not see a paramedic carrying a weapon. I see it has job in EMS is treating the patient. If deadly force is warranted that judgement should be left to law enforcement. Instead implment procedures that are effective in regards to hostile patients.
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a bulletproof vest or a stab vest is a defensive item; its there in case you accidentally get shot or stabbed. if someone wants you dead enough, they are going to do their best to shoot you in the head, or shoot you once in the chest, and while you are recoiling the smashed in the chest with a sledge hammer have a follow up shot in the head.

a vest also DOESN'T add to the intimidating factor. if someone is going to try to hurt you, whether or not you have a vest on or not probably isn't going to be a factor in if you get attacked or not.

btw, the next city over from where I work issues vests to all employees, and mandates their use 24/7. we work in the 2nd most dangerous city, as well as the 23rd most dangerous city, while they (the agency that mandates vests) are the 71st most dangerous city in the US.

I'm gonna stand by my earlier statement. I don't carry a gun, and I don't think EMS should carry guns, either concealed or openly carried.

however, if I was a CCW nut, who always carried a gun on my wherever I went, and I worked EMS in a dangerous city, than ABSOLUTELY I would carry (concealed) when on the ambulance. if I feel the need to have a gun with me just in case when I go to the super market, than I would still feel the need to have one when I went into a crack house with no PD or went on a penetrating trauma call. but that's just me
 
I disagree with this thought.

the_negro_puppy said:
I dont want to have to shoot someone then treat a gunshot wound. Defeat the purpose kinda
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Your purpose is to control the scene.

The professional responder (be it security, peace or police officer) shoots to stop a threat. There is no intent to inflict injury or cause death. Once the threat is stopped, treatment begins.

http://www.greenburghny.com/cit-e-access/webpage.cfm?TID=10&TPID=2853

Very simple. A needs to be stopped. The person is stopped first, then treated. It can be by two people, a police officer and then an emt, or by the same person.

Regardless, if a cop shot someone, and they were no longer a threat, in cuffs, the cop would treat them or facilitate another person to do it.

Just as a military medic treats wounded enemies who are in custody.

Public safety controls the scene. he person gets taken to a hospital or court or both.

With agencies being held accountable for budgets these days, there is the option of blending roles.

MTA Bridge and Tunnel Officers and Port Authority Police in NYS fight fires.
 
firetender said:
The way I see it, once you carry a gun you impose a different filter on your consciousness.

You have it on you. It is there for your defense. It is there for you to use not "if" you need it, but "when". Doesn't even carrying one indicate that that is what you believe? If you really didn't think you'd ever need to use it, you simply would NOT carry one would you?

And that is the mind set that you go to work with. You're looking for the need on every call as PART of your scene assessment. Why? Because you're packing because you believe that ANY scene (any PATIENT!) could prompt you to use it.

Every situation now includes you having to run your experience through this filter. Not only about when or how you use it but also "Can the other guy get at it?" If that is NOT part of your awareness, then you shouldn't be packing.

A gun is designed to be a lethal weapon. This ADDS TO the amount of the consciousness that it occupies in the event you do find yourself in a situation with even POTENTIAL to be dangerous. Even the choice to defend yourself now includes "Do I take this life?"

That's a lot of added thinking you have to carry.

Now to active soldiers and cops, enough experience is available to draw on so that having one on you is no big deal. You really DO know your limits and boundaries, largely because they've been tested.

What I'd like you to ask yourself (those medics with little exposure to actually USING FIREARMS ON OTHER HUMAN BEINGS) is this: Could knowing you have a gun on your person mean that you might miss alternatives for peaceful resolution? After all, you're holding an "Ace" up your sleeve, and that's spelled P-O-W-E-R!

Carrying a gun does not simplify your life. For all but the most mature medics just its presence changes how they view themselves in relationship to every scene they encounter.

I offer all this fully recognizing that there are some call areas that, were I a medic in one, I WOULDN'T HESITATE TO give myself permission to add that complication to my life.

What irks me in threads of this nature is any indication of being casual about the subject.
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This is not a casual subject.

Much of security and law enforcement is command presence.

I beleive that if EMS were armed and given LEO status, it would be a great deterent. Most of the people local LEO deals with are not that bright and tend to give up or not act out if faced with command presence.
 
emt seeking first job said:
This is not a casual subject.

Much of security and law enforcement is command presence.

I beleive that if EMS were armed and given LEO status, it would be a great deterent. Most of the people local LEO deals with are not that bright and tend to give up or not act out if faced with command presence.
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First off, Security has no command presence in the U.S. as they have no real authority and have no legal right to hold anyone against their will. Second if you want to be a cop be a cop. EMS does not need to have a command presence. We are here to help others not threaten them. People already feel threatened by police as it is, now you want to add EMS to that mix. The whole point is to have others trust our profession. they need to know that their medical history is safe from others prying eyes and they need to know they can tell us if they are using illegal drugs so we can treat them accordingly.They do not want to worry if they will get arrested because they smoked a little pot or done some coke or anything else for that matter and it is now affecting their health. If you want to do away with EMS then go ahead with your ideas. It will kill the chances of EMS ever advancing further into healthcare and away from your "EMS is a Public Safety entity" crap.
 
crazycajun said:
Try and take some time and visit a little. I always try and go the extra mile. I keep a variety of stuffed animals and hot wheels at all times for kids I come across. We keep cold bottled water, fresh fruit and county giveaways (stickers, magnets and such) in stock. If I am riding down the street and see someone walking or working in the yard and they look like they are getting overheated I stop and give them a water, talk to them a bit to see how they are doing. We give homeless people fruit and water and the toys are for kids that we transport or that are upset because it is a relative that needs us and they are just scared. The county foots the bill for the supplies without question because of the good it does closing the gap in the community. However, if they didn't pay for the stuff, my partner and I would gladly pick up the tab. As I said just give it a try. You will be amazed at some of the stories you hear and the amount of medical information you get. You never know when the people you talk to will need you but it makes it a better experience if they know you.
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wow my county is broke as hell, guess i know where all our money went :D

seriously you sound like a good humanitarian . kudos to you sir
 
crazycajun said:
First off, Security has no command presence in the U.S. as they have no real authority and have no legal right to hold anyone against their will. Second if you want to be a cop be a cop. EMS does not need to have a command presence. We are here to help others not threaten them. People already feel threatened by police as it is, now you want to add EMS to that mix. The whole point is to have others trust our profession. they need to know that their medical history is safe from others prying eyes and they need to know they can tell us if they are using illegal drugs so we can treat them accordingly.They do not want to worry if they will get arrested because they smoked a little pot or done some coke or anything else for that matter and it is now affecting their health. If you want to do away with EMS then go ahead with your ideas. It will kill the chances of EMS ever advancing further into healthcare and away from your "EMS is a Public Safety entity" crap.
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Command presence controls the scene. It is not there to threaten anyone. Security or Lae Enforcement does not threaten anyone. They ensure the publics voluntary co-operation with a minimal amount of intervention.

Security has no more power than an ordinary citizen, however, it has its role. There are :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: cops and good security guards.

Look up Joseph Trombino. Look up Robert Hansen. Brinks versus the FBI...who was more honorable ?

Nobody should get arrested for having or using any drugs. All drugs should be legally available and taxed, in part to pay for public services, like education, health and safety.

The Police/EMS hybrid works well in Town of Greenburgh, NY.

EMS should be part of a first respeonse.

Anyone who wants to "advance in health-care" can go to school to get a good job at a hospital or doctors office.
 
short answer

crazycajun said:
First off, Security has no command presence in the U.S. as they have no real authority and have no legal right to hold anyone against their will.
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Go to a Nuclear Reactor anywhere in the US. Then report back about the command presence.

Security can arrest people. A citizen's arrest conducted in a professional manner with standards.

If security someplace does not arrest someone, it is because there employer has a protocol not to.

http://www.google.com/search?source...gc.r_pw.&fp=71c6c4af87148765&biw=1003&bih=496
 
emt seeking first job said:
Go to a Nuclear Reactor anywhere in the US. Then report back about the command presence.

Security can arrest people. A citizen's arrest conducted in a professional manner with standards.

If security someplace does not arrest someone, it is because there employer has a protocol not to.

http://www.google.com/search?source...gc.r_pw.&fp=71c6c4af87148765&biw=1003&bih=496
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For the most part, nuke reactors have DOE Police guarding them. They are fully sworn FLEOs.
 
TransportJockey said:
For the most part, nuke reactors have DOE Police guarding them. They are fully sworn FLEOs.
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Not the three nuclear reactors I'm familiar with. They are security in the standard sense, but they carry automatic weapons. I've never even heard of DOE Police. Which reactors are guarded by them?
 
MY apologies. After looking it up some more, I realized that what the DOE cop was talking to me about was nuclear waste and weapons transport to and from facilities primarily. They have a training center and comm post here in ABQ. A couple years ago he was telling me that they were switching private contractors over to sworn LEOs... guess it's still contractors.
 
emt seeking first job said:
Command presence controls the scene. It is not there to threaten anyone. Security or Lae Enforcement does not threaten anyone. They ensure the publics voluntary co-operation with a minimal amount of intervention.

Security has no more power than an ordinary citizen, however, it has its role. There are :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: cops and good security guards.

Look up Joseph Trombino. Look up Robert Hansen. Brinks versus the FBI...who was more honorable ?

Nobody should get arrested for having or using any drugs. All drugs should be legally available and taxed, in part to pay for public services, like education, health and safety.

The Police/EMS hybrid works well in Town of Greenburgh, NY.

EMS should be part of a first respeonse.

Anyone who wants to "advance in health-care" can go to school to get a good job at a hospital or doctors office.
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Where to start?

You are correct that security does not threaten anyone. They have no legal right to detain or put their hands on anyone.

Law enforcement DOES threaten many in the general public. People in some areas feel LEO's are against them even though they have not committed any crime. This has been brought on by the attitude many LEO's have.

Security has no power and has NO role in the U.S.. Enforcing laws should be left up to Law Enforcement. Not EMS and certainly not Security.

"All drugs should be legal". Are you a complete moron? More crack and meth readily available. Yep that is exactly what we need.

Good for Greenburgh NY. In many other places the program failed.

EMS should be a part of healthcare involved not only in pre-hospital care, but intervention and prevention, public education and general public care that does not warrant transport in addition to our SOP.

I make more than many RN's here. I have more fun and get to see many things an RN doesn't.

If you want to be in public service so much, PLEASE do us all a favor and cut up your NREMT cards, close your account here and move on.
 
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