Ambulance stopped by ICE, PT's papers inspected, PT deported

Alan L Serve said:
Fruit from the poisonous tree. It doesn't matter how long ago it happened as everything stemming from that is invalid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree
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The problem with applying that principle here is that the entire history of human civilization is one of tribes and nations enslaving and forcing their cultures and religions on others and taking land and resources from others by guile or by force. America is certainly not uniquely evil in that way, regardless of what modern leftists would have us believe.

As a general ethical principle, I am as much of an advocate of the NAP as anyone, which is in fact where my disdain for enforcement of unjust laws (especially through the aggressive, militarized style of modern American policing) comes from.

However, even the grandparents and great-granparents of those of us alive today never had any control over - and therefore bear no responsibility for - events that took place hundreds of years (or more) ago. There comes a point where we really have no choice but to just accept that as good enough. What is the alternative?
 
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Old Tracker said:
Much of it has to do with the way the present themselves. Physiologically, people who are "wrong" give off signs, physically and verbally, that there is something not quite right here. It could be something as simple as a mode of dress or hair style. It also could be little things such as they are diaphoretic on a cool day or in an air conditioned vehicle. Could be they are unwilling to make eye contact.
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so if they don't look like they belong, they can be detained? maybe they look Mexican, that's grounds for detainment? what about if they look asian? what if they have a funny accent, like those people who are south of the border? if they haven't updated their hair style in 15 years, that means you can put them in cuffs..... Everything you said just screams of profiling and racial discrimination.
Alan L Serve said:
You do realize she is as American as you? She was brought her at 4 months old and has no life or memories of Mexico. Right?
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You do realize that she isn't an American right? her parents broke the law years ago, and snuck into the US with their infant daughter. She is a Mexican citizen, from mexico, living in the US. She has no US passport, has no SSN, and while she has lived here almost all her life, that doesn't change the fact that she is here illegally, and is not an american.

Last I checked, there wasn't a status of limitations on when someone can hide from the law for X number of years and their legal status would automatically change from illegal immigrant to legal one.

Her parents caused her to be in this situation; while I'm sure you blame the big bad ICE agents, for doing their job and enforcing the law, why don't you focus your moral outrage on the the people who are the root cause for this situation: those who snuck her in, bypassing all the legal routes of immigration and citizenship (which, for the record, are neither cheap nor easy for good reason), and put her in the crosshairs of the ICE agents.
 
You make profiling sound like it's a bad thing?:rolleyes: What is profiling? Using your experience and knowledge as an index of suspicion. In the situations I was referring to, it is basically, for males, the manor of dress and hair styles. It usually takes several months for those to change once they are here. And I am speaking of Mexicans and Central Americans when I say that. The manor of dress and hair styles are what would be a "reasonable suspicion" to make contact with the person and ascertain their status. All good with the courts, established over and over again. If they are documented or it is established they are here legally, after a matter of minutes, they are on their way. US cops do that all the time, New York City just happened to take it to extremes. Sounds harsh, but in reality it isn't. Asians I do not have a clue about.

Highway checkpoints, within 100 air miles of the border, have been found legal, by the courts, over and over again also.
 
DrParasite said:
so if they don't look like they belong, they can be detained? maybe they look Mexican, that's grounds for detainment? what about if they look asian? what if they have a funny accent, like those people who are south of the border? if they haven't updated their hair style in 15 years, that means you can put them in cuffs..... Everything you said just screams of profiling and racial discrimination.
You do realize that she isn't an American right? her parents broke the law years ago, and snuck into the US with their infant daughter. She is a Mexican citizen, from mexico, living in the US. She has no US passport, has no SSN, and while she has lived here almost all her life, that doesn't change the fact that she is here illegally, and is not an american.

Last I checked, there wasn't a status of limitations on when someone can hide from the law for X number of years and their legal status would automatically change from illegal immigrant to legal one.

Her parents caused her to be in this situation; while I'm sure you blame the big bad ICE agents, for doing their job and enforcing the law, why don't you focus your moral outrage on the the people who are the root cause for this situation: those who snuck her in, bypassing all the legal routes of immigration and citizenship (which, for the record, are neither cheap nor easy for good reason), and put her in the crosshairs of the ICE agents.
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America is a country of immigrants. She is more American than some "real Americans" I've met.
 
Alan L Serve said:
America is a country of immigrants. She is more American than some "real Americans" I've met.
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What is your definition of American? Because it usually means a legal citizen or native of the country. She is neither a legal citizen or a native of this country.
 
Alan L Serve said:
Law enforcement certain do not have ultimate authority. They are bound by the Constitution and federal laws. When a crime hasn't been committed they have no legal authority to demand a person's papers. What is this- Nazi Germany?
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During a traffic stop, law enforcement has the authority to demand identification from all occupants. And yes, cartels have used ambulances AND humans to internally smuggle drugs.

You weren’t there, didn’t see what the officers saw, didn’t interview the subjects at the scene. And NPR is far from a politically unbiased source of information.

It’s pretty clear you don’t work with police in the normal course and scope of your duties, aren’t familiar with case law pertaining to law enforcement checkpoints, or case law as it pertains to reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

When we (law enforcement) are at a scene, we are in charge. If a person is injured and needs to be arrested, guess what? They go to the hospital we say they go, get treated, and the justice system works it’s broken course.
 
That update is very helpful and outlines a lot of what is wrong with these types of situations - knee jerk emotional reactions by the media and people without accurate facts. They were not traveling in an “ambulance” and the agents were never noticed of her cerebral palsy, not that it matters.

Again, it seems like everything they did was appropriate
 
Horrible optics, though. BRAVE VIGILANT AMERICAN DEFENDERS OF AMERICA DEFEND AMERICA FROM CRIPPLED POST-SURGICAL IMMIGRANT CHILD!!!!
 
CLCustom1911 said:
During a traffic stop, law enforcement has the authority to demand identification from all occupants.
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That is literally untrue. Law enforcement can only demand ID from a person who is suspected of committing a crime. A "hunch" or "sixth sense" doesn't count- it must be an articulated reason based on something the LEOs have seen. If you're not suspected of a crime but someone in your party is then you can voluntarily give your ID to the cops but you are certainly not required to do so.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/09/can-you-refuse-to-identify-yourself-to-police-officers.html

http://www.laweekly.com/news/can-you-refuse-to-identify-yourself-to-police-5082793

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
 
CLCustom1911 said:
During a traffic stop, law enforcement has the authority to demand identification from all occupants. And yes, cartels have used ambulances AND humans to internally smuggle drugs.

You weren’t there, didn’t see what the officers saw, didn’t interview the subjects at the scene. And NPR is far from a politically unbiased source of information.

It’s pretty clear you don’t work with police in the normal course and scope of your duties, aren’t familiar with case law pertaining to law enforcement checkpoints, or case law as it pertains to reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

When we (law enforcement) are at a scene, we are in charge. If a person is injured and needs to be arrested, guess what? They go to the hospital we say they go, get treated, and the justice system works it’s broken course.
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Law Enforcement does not have the authority to "demand" identification from all occupants in a traffic stop unless they have reasonable suspicion the passengers doing something or if the occupants committed an offense also. Just because a driver is stopped for speeding, etc., doesn't mean the passenger has to identify himself, he wasn't the one who committed the offense.
 
Billy D said:
Law Enforcement does not have the authority to "demand" identification from all occupants in a traffic stop unless they have reasonable suspicion the passengers doing something or if the occupants committed an offense also. Just because a driver is stopped for speeding, etc., doesn't mean the passenger has to identify himself, he wasn't the one who committed the offense.
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There are some on this EMS internet forum who believe police officers hold unlimited ability. They forget about the US Constitution. I am glad to see one who, like myself, believes in the rights of private citizens to remain private.
 
Alan L Serve said:
They forget about the US Constitution. I am glad to see one who, like myself, believes in the rights of private citizens to remain private.
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Key words...
 
Chase said:
Key words...
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You do realize the Constitution and bill of rights applies to everyone in the US regardless of citizenship status right? We might not agree with it, but that's what it is. I learned this back in High School history class
 
Billy D said:
You do realize the Constitution and bill of rights applies to everyone in the US regardless of citizenship status right?
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Ummmm this is not the case. The bill of rights and constitution applies to American citizens and not illegal aliens.

Actually if you want to get technical the bill of rights applies to the government and what they can and can not do to US citizens.
 
CALEMT said:
Ummmm this is not the case. The bill of rights and constitution applies to American citizens and not illegal aliens.

Actually if you want to get technical the bill of rights applies to the government and what they can and can not do to US citizens.
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The courts have ruled the same protections and rights apply to illegal aliens. Read U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark back in 1896 and the 14th Amendment. In the 14th amendment, it specifically states: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. NOTE that it says ANY person
 
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