Ooopppss

And I just watched that CAPCE VectorSolutions in service training video on agitated delerium last shift that reiterated how hobble tie and prone restraints for patients are directly correlated with death and how you should never ever restrain any patient in such a position (which is exactly what I remember from EMT school however many years ago now). Insane to think that any EMS provider anywhere would consider doing exactly that nowadays...
 
"First-degree murder"?? I thought that had to be planned.
 
First degree murder is likely a direct result of LEOs being charged and convicted in the George Floyd death. They are hoping it gets plead down, because they won't get a conviction. However it definitely gets attention.

I'm not saying you should NEVER position someone in a prone position; cops do this all the time, as a means to restrain a violent person. however, once the situation is under control, don't keep in that position. These EMS providers should have known better, as this is a known consequence, especially when the patient is prone with the strap putting pressure on their back.

Civil penalties against them and their employer? I can support that. Criminal charges? yeah, I can support that too, provided the charges are appropriate. First degree murder charges? sorry, that's a bridge too far.
 
I think if that were me I'd make the DA prove murder in the first degree. No one could convict them of that in Illinois and if they did, an appeal would have pretty good odds of being successful. No plea, make them put up or shut up. Incompetence, malicious indifference, stupidity? Sure. First degree murder? Spare me...
 
Knowingly placing someone under your care in a position or situation that can and has resulted in deaths. I think the DA researched quite a bit on what to charge.
 
CCCSD said:
Knowingly placing someone under your care in a position or situation that can and has resulted in deaths. I think the DA researched quite a bit on what to charge.
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That vague criteria for first degree murder would implicate 10's of thousands of physicians every day.
 
CCCSD said:
Knowingly placing someone under your care in a position or situation that can and has resulted in deaths. I think the DA researched quite a bit on what to charge.
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That pretty much covers placing a patient in the back of an ambulance and getting into an accident where they die on the way to the hospital. Care to rethink that statement?

Here's the actual law https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=072000050K9-1
​
(1) he or she either intends to kill or do great​
​
bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or​
(2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong​
​
probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or​
(3) he or she, acting alone or with one or more​
​
participants, commits or attempts to commit a forcible felony other than second degree murder, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or flight therefrom, he or she or another participant causes the death of a person.​
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It's going to be quite the stretch to prove they knew their actions were *probably* going to result in death or bodily harm. Not possibly, but probably.
 
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Don’t need to rethink a thing. They SCREWED up. They knew the danger. It’s amazing that everyone MMQs the Police, but refuses to hold EMS responsible for THEIR actions. Please show me where NREMT et al have taught this, certified this, signed off on this “technique” that you endorse.

Care to rethink THAT?
 
CCCSD said:
Don’t need to rethink a thing. They SCREWED up. They knew the danger. It’s amazing that everyone MMQs the Police, but refuses to hold EMS responsible for THEIR actions. Please show me where NREMT et al have taught this, certified this, signed off on this “technique” that you endorse.

Care to rethink THAT?
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Sure... they screwed up, and I don't think anyone is disputing that... But that doesn't mean they committed first degree murder. They didn't intend to have him die.

Are they are responsible for the person's death? I don't think anyone is saying they aren't... but I don't think their intent was to cause the patient's death.

E tank said:
I think if that were me I'd make the DA prove murder in the first degree. No one could convict them of that in Illinois and if they did, an appeal would have pretty good odds of being successful. No plea, make them put up or shut up. Incompetence, malicious indifference, stupidity? Sure. First degree murder? Spare me...
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I agree... I think the DA is going to try to pressure the two EMS providers into taking a plea deal, and use this overly aggressive charge to convince them to take a plea.

It's not that these two providers didn't committ a crime, but rather not first degree murder
 
CCCSD said:
Don’t need to rethink a thing. They SCREWED up. They knew the danger. It’s amazing that everyone MMQs the Police, but refuses to hold EMS responsible for THEIR actions. Please show me where NREMT et al have taught this, certified this, signed off on this “technique” that you endorse.

Care to rethink THAT?
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Never said I endorsed that technique. I said that based upon the way you worded your statement, EMS providers could be charged with murder if they get in accident and the patient dies.

I then went on to post the actual Illinois law for murder, quoting the relevant section about what is needed to proved the first degree murder charge these two EMS providers were charged with.. The way the law is worded, keeping in mind that I'm not a lawyer and this is only my opinion based upon the text of the law, I am not seeing how what those two did rises to the level of they knew it would *probably* result in his death.

Yes, they appear to have screwed up royally. Yes, their actions probably contributed to the patient's death. Yes, they should face criminal and civil actions if they did.

BUT

We haven't heard both sides of the story yet either. There may be other factors in play we're not aware of yet so to judge them based solely upon an accusation is premature.
 
CCCSD said:
Don’t need to rethink a thing. They SCREWED up. They knew the danger. It’s amazing that everyone MMQs the Police, but refuses to hold EMS responsible for THEIR actions. Please show me where NREMT et al have taught this, certified this, signed off on this “technique” that you endorse.

Care to rethink THAT?
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lol spare us the blue lives matter histrionics.

This crew willfully made a terrible choice. I haven’t seen anyone argue that they didn’t make a colossally poor judgement.

And they should be charged criminally, without a doubt. It is your responsibility as a provider to know that this position can and does at times lead to death. If you willfully choose to still do that you must be held accountable. I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know what an appropriate charge is, but I sure hope the punishment is significant.
 
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E tank said:
don't be a d**k
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Not a single person here nor anyone else I’ve seen throughout social media has done anything but call out EMS for doing the wrong thing. For once our profession shows some ownership of wrongdoing. Truly an awful example of how the police are treated unfairly.

not sure why law enforcement even needs to brought up here, aside from the fact that they did a great job on this call. They recognized someone was having a medical issue, called for EMS, and then kind of prodded EMS to even try to do their own jobs.
 
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mgr22 said:
Here's a link to an article with video:

www.ems1.com

Police bodycam released after EMS providers charged with murder of patient in their care

The 35-year-old man died from compressional and positional asphyxia, which a coroner said was a result of being placed face down on a stretcher
www.ems1.com www.ems1.com

EMS arrives at about 16:00.
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the 22:00 is where the patient ends up on the cot.

I've seem cops do this to non-compliant patient; it's not my position to judge them on their actions. They flopped the patient face down on the cot, which may or may not be appropriate for their role. I'll leave that decision up to the law enforcement forums.

Just so there is no confusing, I will say that the EMS providers are WRONG. instead of leaving the patient prone and secured on the cot (the strap wasn't applied punitively, but it was to ensure the patient didn't fall off the cot), they should have flipped him over onto his back. he didn't seem violent or combative, so this should an easy adjustment. that all being said, first degree murder charges still seem excessive, but this was an avoidable death, had the crew did the bare minimum. To reiterate, I'm ok with criminal and civil charges being applied, provided the charges fit the crime. Not these excessive ones.

Also, I'm willing to wait for all of the facts to come out, and the jury trial to occur, before I say these two should spend up to 60 years in jail.
 
I would say that the DA likely would have a reasonably difficult establishing a case for 1st Degree Murder as the DA would probably have a difficult time proving intent to actually kill. I would suspect that at trial, they'll probably push for something like 1st Degree Murder and lesser included crimes so that the entire range of Murder to negligent homicide can be decided upon by the Jury.

As the facts come out, it may very well be that the death wasn't avoidable... but if that's the case, the question becomes "did the crew do their due diligence" in attempting to stave off the inevitable? We don't know for certain, but it doesn't look too good for that crew...
 
Interesting.. read this on another site and pulled it up for myself. It appears intent is NOT required for first degree murder in Illinois..

A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if....in performing the act which caused death... (1) intends to kill or do great bodily harm OR (2) he or she knows such acts create a strong probability of death.
 
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FiremanMike said:
Interesting.. read this on another site and pulled it up for myself. It appears intent is NOT required for first degree murder in Illinois..

A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if....in performing the act which caused death... (1) intends to kill or do great bodily harm OR (2) he or she knows such acts create a strong probability of death.
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Yeah, that "strong probability" part is different than the possibly standard a lot of people seem to be applying to this situation.
 
ffemt8978 said:
Yeah, that "strong probability" part is different than the possibly standard a lot of people seem to be applying to this situation.
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Strong probability is still FAR below intentional, which is the standard in many states.
 
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