Firefighter Paramedic killed with his own gun

[Jeffrey_169]

I agree, this thread is totally appropriate.

It seems from the article, though, that this was a failure to follow basic rules of firearm safety - both on his part, in that he left the loaded firearm sitting around, and on the part of the woman who shot him. You treat any gun as if it's loaded, and you never, ever point a gun at anyone or anything you don't intend to shoot.

For me, the reality of this situation is that it is an absolute tragedy that may wind up ending two lives. His, obviously, and the woman who is now facing manslaughter charges. If the article is right, he was working on bettering himself as a Paramedic, and may have had a bright future. Now that won't happen. But that has little to do with the gun - he could have just as easily been hit by an inattentive driver while stepping out of an ambulance, or fallen down the stairs. I think we should avoid the temptation to wave the bloody shirt and scream how this makes guns inherently evil.

I agree completely. My daughter is four and can shoot, but she is supervised and I don't let her use it without ME being there. Guns are only as safe as the operator. I have been shooting since I was four and never had a problem.

There is a lesson to be learned here, "This equipment does not have a brain, use your own".

I am sorry it ended this way however. It really is a shame.

 

[medic417]

Have you not seen the numerous recent threads with many, many posts on the subject of carrying weapons on duty, off duty and at various scenes?

This has nothing to do with carrying on the job. This only has to do with a person that picked up a firearm that obviously knew nothing about firearms. Yes the Paramedic made a mistake leaving it unsecured and by this shows he probably had no business owning a firearm.

Obviously though this proves nothing in regards to your argument that even those that have proper firearm education should not carry on duty. Those of us that have brought it up have never argued that all Paramedics carry firearms only that those that are properly educated be able to legally carry.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

Exactly. The possession of a firearm is no different then anythig else, whether is be driing a car, practicing medicine, etc; it is important to understand training is the key and education is the key.

 

[VentMedic]

This has nothing to do with carrying on the job.

Luckily he wasn't on the job when it happened. Had he been so careless with his weapon on the job, other lives may have been lost.

If you truly understand the safety issues and responsibility of carrying a weapon, that understanding would be with you for whatever situation you are in. If you display this type of carelessness you have no business carrying any type of weapon anywhere.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

Luckily he wasn't on the job when it happened. Had he been so careless with his weapon on the job, other lives may have been lost.

If you truly understand the safety issues and responsibility of carrying a weapon, that understanding would be with you for whatever situation you are in. If you display this type of carelessness you have no business carrying any type of weapon anywhere.

Very well put.

 

[medic417]

Luckily he wasn't on the job when it happened. Had he been so careless with his weapon on the job, other lives may have been lost.

If you truly understand the safety issues and responsibility of carrying a weapon, that understanding would be with you for whatever situation you are in. If you display this type of carelessness you have no business carrying any type of weapon anywhere.

And had you quoted me completely I said " by this shows he probably had no business owning a firearm ". So guess that means he is not one of the properly educated that should have the legal right to carry if they want to.

 

[VentMedic]

And had you quoted me completely I said " by this shows he probably had no business owning a firearm ". So guess that means he is not one of the properly educated that should have the legal right to carry if they want to.

My reply to you reply to my earlier post.

This has nothing to do with carrying on the job. This only has to do with a person that picked up a firearm that obviously knew nothing about firearms. Yes the Paramedic made a mistake leaving it unsecured and by this shows he probably had no business owning a firearm.

Obviously though this proves nothing in regards to your argument that even those that have proper firearm education should not carry on duty. Those of us that have brought it up have never argued that all Paramedics carry firearms only that those that are properly educated be able to legally carry.

We've already been through this many, many times. 4 - 6 hours of training does not provide enough education and hands on to carry a weapon as a Paramedic. One can still find Public Safety Officer jobs with your Paramedic patch and they will cross train you appropriately to carry a weapon for use on the job as an LEO. You can not compare the training Joe Q Public gets at a concealed weapons class with that of a law enforcement. If you are going to carry a gun while representing your company, your employer should know and if they allow this, there should be training provided just like law enforcement to keep you from being shot, shooting your partner or an innocent bystander. There, at the very minimum, should be a way to measure your competency on file just as there is for any other skill you perform on the job. But then, some agencies have problems keeping records and some EMS providers have a problem with "more training and education". To be fair, it would have to be enforced for all EMS providers (all EMTs and all Paramedics) in an agency so that dispatch would not have to determine which truck to send where by who is armed or not to prevent further liability.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

I agree. You won't find anyone more conservative on firearms issues then I, but if someone is going to carry a firearm on duty, in a professional capacity, then they need to be trained far more then Joe Public and the concealed weapons permits. Any service member, as an example, will tell you even before we carry our weapons in the FMF we must be extensively trained in the use and care of a firearm. This is for a variety of reasons, the main one being safety.

IN boot I went through three weeks of basic rifle training alone, and this does not include the time spent at the pistol range and other tactical courses. In my opinion most LEOs aren't properly trained. To use a firearm in a tactical situation is not as simple as it may seem to most. It requires not just the physical handling of the weapon, but also the mental training.

 

[FLEMTP]

Something I wanted to point out.. in the state of florida.. you dont even need a concealed weapon permit to carrry in a vehicle. As long as the gun is "security encased" then you dont need a concealed weapon permit.. you just need to be 18+.

in case you're wondering
Reading FL Statute Title XLVI, Chapter 790,

790.001 Definitions -"Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.

Also, even if you do get a concealed weapons permit here, you go through a 2 hour course minimum that addresses the legal ramifications of carrying and use of a deadly weapon. Then, you just need to demonstrate that you can safely handle a firearm. This can be as little as one shot fired from a pistol.

personally, I think that anyone who does carry a firearm concealed or security encased in a vehicle in this state has a personal and moral obligation to themselves and the general public to attend additional firearms training.

A gun is a tool, not a toy or a fashion accessory. One should ALWAYS be adequately trained to use it!

 

[Jon]

FLEMTP - to further muddy the waters of FL, I've got reciprocity with my PA LCTF to carry a concealed firearm in FL. And there is no training or functional performance requirement in PA.

Luckily he wasn't on the job when it happened. Had he been so careless with his weapon on the job, other lives may have been lost.

If you truly understand the safety issues and responsibility of carrying a weapon, that understanding would be with you for whatever situation you are in. If you display this type of carelessness you have no business carrying any type of weapon anywhere.

Vent - Is it legal to carry on the job as a medic in FL?
Do you have any evidence he did so, are are you simply suggesting that he might have done so?

 

[VentMedic]

Vent - Is it legal to carry on the job as a medic in FL?

No.

This was a big issue in the early 1980s and to this date no EMS or FD agency allows carry of a weapon unless they are part of a Public Safety organization where they are crosstrained as LEOs and their job is also LE.

Do you have any evidence he did so, are are you simply suggesting that he might have done so?

I never said the Paramedic in this article carried on the job since the fatal shot happened off duty. Medic417 and I were debating the old "carry on the ambulance" issue and I stated if you don't know what you are doing off the job with a gun, you probably can handle a gun on an ambulance either.

 

[VentMedic]

Something I wanted to point out.. in the state of florida.. you dont even need a concealed weapon permit to carrry in a vehicle. As long as the gun is "security encased" then you dont need a concealed weapon permit.. you just need to be 18+.

in case you're wondering
Reading FL Statute Title XLVI, Chapter 790,

790.001 Definitions -"Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.

Also, even if you do get a concealed weapons permit here, you go through a 2 hour course minimum that addresses the legal ramifications of carrying and use of a deadly weapon. Then, you just need to demonstrate that you can safely handle a firearm. This can be as little as one shot fired from a pistol.

personally, I think that anyone who does carry a firearm concealed or security encased in a vehicle in this state has a personal and moral obligation to themselves and the general public to attend additional firearms training.

A gun is a tool, not a toy or a fashion accessory. One should ALWAYS be adequately trained to use it!

I'm glad you posted this since some don't see why I don't believe a concealed weapons permit is enough to give the privilege of carrying a gun to every 18 y/o EMT on an ambulance.

 

[ffemt8978]

No.

This was a big issue in the early 1980s and to this date no EMS or FD agency allows carry of a weapon unless they are part of a Public Safety organization where they are crosstrained as LEOs and their job is also LE.

I never said the Paramedic in this article carried on the job since the fatal shot happened off duty. Medic417 and I were debating the old "carry on the ambulance" issue and I stated if you don't know what you are doing off the job with a gun, you probably can handle a gun on an ambulance either.

Is it against the agency rules to carry a weapon, or is it actually illegal to do so? There is a huge difference between the two.

In my search of Florida laws, I haven't been able to find the actual law that states it is illegal to carry a weapon while working as a medic but maybe I missed it. Do you have a link to the actual law?

 

[VentMedic]

In my search of Florida laws, I haven't been able to find the actual law that states it is illegal to carry a weapon while working as a medic but maybe I missed it. Do you have a link to the actual law?

It was decided by the leaders of EMS/FD agencies during the 1980s after a court case in Miami when a few FFs wanted to carry guns. Even the union thought that was a bad idea despite the violence in Miami at the time. Thus, very few have tried to challenge the decision from that case. More time would be spent securing the weapons than actually fighting the fire. They also did not want to send the wrong message to the people in the community in what was already a turbulent and frightening time.

The reason it probably never became an actual statute was due to the many public safety agencies Florida had at the time.

I also posted an article on this forum where the Paramedics who work for both a county FD and the county SWAT disarm themselves when working on a fire truck as Paramedic.

I also believe there might have been more than the one case since reaper and I had a PM conversation about a case he also remembered which came later.

Do you believe a 2 hour course is enough to put a gun in the hands of every 18 y/o EMT on an ambulance?

 

[ffemt8978]

So it's not illegal.

I was able to find this article http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1991-09-04/news/guns-n-hoses/ which deals with an incident in 1991 which states it was a departmental policy the firefighter violated.

 

[JPINFV]

Do you believe a 2 hour course is enough to put a gun in the hands of every 18 y/o EMT on an ambulance?

I'm confused. Did someone suggest that fire arms should be standard issue? I thought that this discussion was about someone choosing to carry vs being forced to carry. Forcing anyone to carry a fire arm against their will is idiotic. As such, turning an argument from "some" to "all" doesn't work since not all 18 year old EMT-Bs are going to want to carry a fire arm anyways.

 

[VentMedic]

So it's not illegal.

I was able to find this article http://www.miaminewtimes.com/1991-09-04/news/guns-n-hoses/ which deals with an incident in 1991 which states it was a departmental policy the firefighter violated.

The original case was during the Liberty City Riots and Mariel...10 years prior to that incident.

Again, do you think 2 hours of training is enough to put a gun in the hands of every EMT on an ambulance?

 

[VentMedic]

I'm confused. Did someone suggest that fire arms should be standard issue? I thought that this discussion was about someone choosing to carry vs being forced to carry. Forcing anyone to carry a fire arm against their will is idiotic. As such, turning an argument from "some" to "all" doesn't work since not all 18 year old EMT-Bs are going to want to carry a fire arm anyways.

An employer has the right to know about a weapon on an ambulance they own. However, what if dispatch now gives the calls in "bad" areas only to those known to be carrying? Where's the liability? What if the others feel left out and rush out to buy their first gun and then after a 2 hour class and a couple rounds on a range, they also are allowed to carry? Should only a few carry and not all especially if all it takes is a couple of hours of training? Should there be blatant discrimination and on what basis if the concealed carry law says all you need is 2 hours of training? Should the ambulance be marked differently? What about the insurance carriers for the ambulances? Should they charge the employer a higher rate for LE duties? What about your own personal insurance now that you are carrying on the job every shift and with the intent to use it one the job?

 

[JPINFV]

Am I suggesting that anyone should carry on an ambulance? If it takes 2 hours to cover the legalities, safety, and range qualification, then 2 hours works for me. Competency is more important than clock hours.

 

[VentMedic]

Here's a decent study by a former Paramedic.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/heal...Carrying_gun_raises_risk_of_getting_shot.html

Posted on Mon, Oct. 12, 2009


Penn study: Carrying gun raises risk of getting shot