Concealed Carry

[medichopeful]

Alright, so this came up recently in a separate thread.

Let's say you are dispatched to a patient, and upon arrival you either find that the patient has a weapon and a legal CCW or you find that your patient has a CCW and may or may not have a weapon on them. What do you do?

 

[Shishkabob]

Haldol!

 

[medichopeful]

Me, personally, I would not treat them until they either relinquish the weapon to LE, or I verify that they do not have a weapon on them. The only time I would treat somebody with a weapon would be if they were another public servant (LE, etc).

 

[Summit]

If I have no reason to suspect altered mental status, I can treat them.

But the question is, what do we do with their gun? If it is nonemergent, I'll have them lock it up in their car or home. Otherwise, I can't have them with a weapon in an ambulance, especially if they might receive narcs or have altered mental status. You can't bring them in the hospital with a gun either. The facilities are not set up to watch over such a possession.

Putting it in LEO custody might be an option, but depending on the LEO organization, that citizen might have to wait 6 months to get their property back... if ever.

 

[JPINFV]

Summit, the LEO agency better be handing back property that was legally held regardless of if it's a fire arm or not. If they are confiscating legally carried fire arms, then they are violating the citizens fourth amendment protection against unreasonable seizure. I'd definitely argue that there's a valid argument to seize firearms that are legally carried in cases where EMS where the patient is legally conceal carry, however not returning it (heck, even 6 months) is definitely not reasonable.

Summit, if they can't lock it up or hand it off to someone else (friend, relative, LEO if patient is time sensitive and LEOs aren't on scene yet), hopefully one of the EMTs are familiar and comfortable with guns (these are not the same) and can safety the gun. If that happens, probably the best bet would be to transport the gun in the cab and have police meet you at the hospital to hand over the fire arm. What you absolutely can't do is leave a firearm on scene unattended.

 

[JPINFV]

Me, personally, I would not treat them until they either relinquish the weapon to LE, or I verify that they do not have a weapon on them. The only time I would treat somebody with a weapon would be if they were another public servant (LE, etc).

What makes a public servant necessarily any more trustworthy or less than a citizen with a conceal carry permit (Ft. Hood anyone? Oklahoma state police? The various "Don't taze me bro" incidents.)? What if the police aren't on scene when you arrive?

 

[Luno]

Correction enroute...

Me, personally, I would not treat them until they either relinquish the weapon to LE, or I verify that they do not have a weapon on them. The only time I would treat somebody with a weapon would be if they were another public servant (LE, etc).

Okay, this appears to me to be either a misunderstanding of your role as a provider, or a lack of clarification from your instructors regarding what makes a scene unsafe. The presence of a weapon does not make anything particularly unsafe, the entirety of the circumstance makes the scene safe or unsafe. Having treated patients with concealed weapons, the appropriate method of treatment is to leave the weapon secured (in a holster is secured) until you reach the ER doors, your short report to the receiving facility should include that you are transporting a CCW carrier (or whatever 3 letter designator for your state that identifies a concealed weapon licensee), and you would like security to meet you at the door. Having worked on a commitee to place these guidelines in place at a local hospital, the security staff should arrive with a lock box and some sort of receipt system to secure the weapon for the patient, and provide accountability for it while the patient is in the care of the facility. This all being said, I believe that this clarification, as well as additional research of your specific area protocols shed better light on this for you.

 

[rescue99]

Alright, so this came up recently in a separate thread.

Let's say you are dispatched to a patient, and upon arrival you either find that the patient has a weapon and a legal CCW or you find that your patient has a CCW and may or may not have a weapon on them. What do you do?

No weapons allowed at ER's or in my truck! If he's just got it and it can be secured at home or with PD (away from home), good. Find a way to secure any weapon in otherwords. If he's not willing...call PD anyway. A CCW doesn't mean a person has a weapon on their person. Deal with it accordingly when the situation arrises.

 

[FF-EMT Diver]

How are you gonna know they're a CCW'er?

What does it matter?

If they have AMS I can understand securing the weapon (but you should do the same even with LEO as if they are injured and are AMS they may react on the training they have recieved...)

I have personally watched a partner secure a wepaon in the most unsafe fashion possible and tuck it into his waistband as securement......That is NOT secured....

If I have reason to believe that person may be a danger or has severly AMS then I will have LEO secure the weapon ( I will not remove it myself unless I am on LEO duty) ( unless it is an immediate threat E.g. they are drawing it)

I carry daily if I am off the truck and do not want my weapon removed by someone who may or may not have a clue about firearms....

Also it will not take LEO 6 mos to return the weapon as it has not been "confiscated".

 

[FF-EMT Diver]

You can't bring them in the hospital with a gun either. The facilities are not set up to watch over such a possession.

In most states it is not "Illegal to carry into a hospital if you have a carry permit/license.....People get the idea from the no gun symbol on the door that it is illegal in most places it isnt, the facility just does not want you there with it.....Now saying that if they ask that you leave or secure your weapon you must or be charged with criminal trespass.

 

[VentMedic]

The patient does not board the truck with a weapon.

If at an MVC or on scene with PD, they will secure it.

If in the home in a safe area, the weapon will be left behind or you tell them PD can secure it and they will have to take fill out the paperwork to retreive it along with a lengthy explanations as to why the gun was not secured when asked.

The gun is not to be left with other person who does not have rightful ownership and/or is in a capable position to carry. PD can again be consulted. If the other person appears to be under the influence of any mind altering drugs or alcohol or there are children present, the gun is turned over to PD.

If the gun is found on the way to the ED, the hospital should be notified and their security will deal with it and/or have an LEO take the weapon.

If you see the gun on the way to the ED and you have reason to believe it is not a "legal carry", don't draw attention but have your partner notify the ED. It is always good to have a few special codes or signals worked out with your partner for special situations.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Who is checking for permits? I hope that when you see a gun on a patient you are not spending time to check for the validity of a permit. Gun on scene (unless it is in the hands of a LEO) makes the scene unsafe because you do not know the reason for the gun being on scene. When you arrive on scene you have only the information given you upon dispatch and we all know how accurate that always is; so a gun on scene is a gun on scene and therefore the scene needs to be viewed as unsafe until proven otherwise.

However, it is largely a judgement call unless you agency says otherwise. If the patinet is Conscious, Alert, and Oriented, and you feel unsafe in this situation, request LEOs... or you may procedure as normal if that is your desision; however, I agree that weapons are not permitted in the confined space of an Ambulance. If the subject is altered, then I would call the situation unsafe and back out. If the subject is unconscious, I would secure the weapon myself (if I was already on scene and found the weapon during the assessment) and call LEOs.

 

[spinnakr]

However, it is largely a judgement call unless you agency says otherwise. If the patinet is Conscious, Alert, and Oriented, and you feel unsafe in this situation, request LEOs... or you may procedure as normal if that is your decision; however, I agree that weapons are not permitted in the confined space of an Ambulance. If the subject is altered, then I would call the situation unsafe and back out. If the subject is unconscious, I would secure the weapon myself and call LEOs.

My thoughts boil down to this: for me, it isn't going to boil down to a yes or no. Life seldom does. This question especially is HIGHLY situation-dependent for me. If I feel unsafe, if I get a bad vibe or whatever, I'm out of there and back in the truck. But if the patient is truly a CONCEALED carry permit holder, which is, after all, the subject of the thread, I for one doubt quite seriously that I, as a responder, would know about a potential weapon until I were actually on-scene and interviewing (or examining) the patient.

Again, this is highly situation-dependent. Being both comfortable and familiar with weapons, if I, for example, found an unsecured weapon on an unresponsive patient, I would make an attempt to secure the weapon. Hopefully LE would already be on-scene, but if LE isn't around and wouldn't be for a while, it's a critical and unresponsive patient, and the patient is alone... the weapon will quite probably be secured, unloaded, somewhere in the truck, out-of-reach and out-of-sight from anyone but myself and my partner, and I'll notify the ED receiving of the situation. I'm not going to let my patient die because LE wasn't going to get there quickly enough to secure a weapon for me - ASSUMING I FEEL SAFE AS THE SITUATION UNFOLDS. That said, you can be damn sure I'll be writing an incident report if there's ever a weapon in my truck.

For me, there is no clear-cut line. I'll go with what I feel is most appropriate at the time of the call, given the situations as they have been presented to me.

 

[Summit]

We are gonna know they are CCW because either they tell us they have a CCW (goes to them probably being unaltered) in which case I don't care until it's time to go to the hospital or we find it on exam (probably altered or suspect) in which case I'd like PD around.

Summit, the LEO agency better be handing back property that was legally held regardless of if it's a fire arm or not. If they are confiscating legally carried fire arms, then they are violating the citizens fourth amendment protection against unreasonable seizure. I'd definitely argue that there's a valid argument to seize firearms that are legally carried in cases where EMS where the patient is legally conceal carry, however not returning it (heck, even 6 months) is definitely not reasonable.

You know, around here, I'd have no worries. But in some cities, the PD has an attitude and they don't like that the state allows CCW at all... or even handgun ownership period and they'll draaaaaaaaaaaaag their feet. This happens all the time with people who have weapons confiscated for an investigation and are never charged or are found innocent.

 

[rforsythe]

This is highly subjective. If the Pt calmly says "hey I have a CCW", they're also likely to volunteer that they're carrying a weapon pretty soon after that. If able they could secure it, or safely pass it to you - but in that case I'm pretty sure the Pt isn't out to get me. If they don't tell you, then you aren't likely to know about it right away anyway; by design, CCW holders don't draw attention to the fact that they're carrying.

It really comes down to how you find out, and when. Anything other than an unaltered Pt bringing it to my attention voluntarily (or an unconscious Pt that can't) raises the suspicion/pucker factor considerably, because then I have to wonder why they hid it and what else might be on them, so if I could get the weapon away from them in a quick, calm, and non-confrontational manner, I'd want to do that. Since I have to question their intentions at this point, I'm really less concerned about whatever "holding time" they might have to wait to get it back from the cops than my own ability to come home at night. At that point, it's whatever it takes for the latter to happen.

Any way you shake it, the gun needs to be removed from the Pt's accessibility. If that means responsibly leaving it on scene in some way, fine; if it's in the truck and you have to get it up front and out of reach, it's not ideal but is your best option IMO (again, provided you do it safely).

 

[medichopeful]

What makes a public servant necessarily any more trustworthy or less than a citizen with a conceal carry permit (Ft. Hood anyone? Oklahoma state police? The various "Don't taze me bro" incidents.)? What if the police aren't on scene when you arrive?

Im sorry, but I am going to put more trust in a police officer than I am some random citizen I come into contact with. That's just the way it goes. Which of the two has gone through an extensive background check, psychological check, and hiring process to carry a weapon? I'll tell you that it's not the CCW holder. So yes, a public servant IS more trustworthy than a citizen with a CCW.

If the police aren't there, I will judge the scene as I see it. If I see that the patient has a weapon, I'll hold off until LE arrives. If I look and don't see an obvious weapon, than I will approach with caution, as everybody should do on every call. If I see a weapon while I'm close to the patient, I'll have to make the determination then. If it's on his person, and I don't feel safe, they can wait for treatment. If it's on their person and I do feel comfortable (not safe. You should NEVER feel completely safe), I will probably treat the patient until they give me a reason to do otherwise. If they openly say that they have a weapon on them, I'll ask where it is and make a decision about what to do. This could be as simple as saying "Okay, thank you for letting me know sir. Would you mind keeping your hands away from that area?"

It basically comes down to my safety and my partner's. If I see a weapon while approaching the scene, the patient will probably have to wait a bit. If PD is on scene, and I discover a weapon while treating the patient, I will have them take it into their possession. If they admit to having a weapon on them and PD is on scene, I will ask the CCW owner to relinquish the weapon to the PD to ease the flow of treatment. If I discover that the patient has a weapon and PD is NOT on scene, I'll make the determination about what to do then, as I stated above. If I do not feel comfortable, or I think something is wrong, I'm not going to let the door hit me or my partner on the way out.

By the way, the only person bringing a weapon into my ambulance (when I work on one) will be a LEO. If a patient has a weapon on them, they're not entering the patient compartment.

 

[spisco85]

Anyone who is injured and has a weapon needs it to be secured. LEO, military, secret service, scotland yard, mossad, whatever. An injured person is an injured person and with that much training reflexes often come into play more than a civilian and might have a reaction on anything. Always side with your safety and the safety of the patient.

 

[medichopeful]

Anyone who is injured and has a weapon needs it to be secured. LEO, military, secret service, scotland yard, mossad, whatever. An injured person is an injured person and with that much training reflexes often come into play more than a civilian and might have a reaction on anything. Always side with your safety and the safety of the patient.

Right. In my scenario of treating a LEO, it would only be for a minor injury. If it's a major injury, they wouldn't have their duty belt on, and thus they wouldn't have their weapon on them. I would also check for other concealed weapons on a LEO. Not saying where on this board, as it's a public place and I don't want everybody knowing where else they can be hidden.

 

[JPINFV]

Not saying where on this board, as it's a public place and I don't want everybody knowing where else they can be hidden.

If an officer could hide a weapon in a place, he will. One of my family friends was a police officer in Texas and my father has a humorous of watching him getting ready to go to work because of the 5-6 guns of various sizes he had on him. The friends opinion was that he needed to be in reach of a fire arm regardless of what position he might end up in during a fight.

 

[trevor1189]

Ok I am not sure if it is a PA Dept of Health thing or our dept policy but no weapons (with the exception of pocket knives) may be transported on the ambulance. This includes tasers, pepper spray, firearms, etc.

Request PD to the scene. If the Pt. does not want to give it up, I am leaving. It's not abandonment, it's the scene is unsafe.

I'm all for concealed carry and right to own a gun, but I don't know everyone and don't want a gun to be distracting me from pt. care.