ALS Sleepover

[alphatrauma]

This verbiage seems to get tossed around whenever the "accelerated program" or "medic mill" threads pop up... I'm just curious as to what exactly an ALS sleepover is, and why the negative connotation is justified.

 

[medic417]

It means you are just doing hours not doing patient care so clinicals benefit you 0%.

 

[VentMedic]

I use the term because some medic mills hook up with FDs to get more of their students pushed through their programs quickly. Some will use ALS engines and allow them to do a full 24 hour shift. At a slow suburban station, that is a "sleepover" but the number of hours still count toward the completion of the program.

Another term often used is "coffee clinicals". The hours are being accrued while sitting around the coffee pot.

Florida has had to emphasize that an engine is NOT an ambulance.
http://www.fl-ems.com/July2008Newsletter.pdf

As a response to several inquiries
made by educators regarding
paramedic field internships on
Advanced Life Support (ALS)
engines, please refer to the following
information:
Section 401.2701(b)2, Florida
Statute, requires the field internship
experience be aboard advanced
life support permitted
ambulances. The statute reads as
follows:​

Paramedic
programs must provide a
field internship experience
aboard an advanced life support
permitted ambulance.​

Section 401.23 Definitions:​

(5)"Ambulance" or "emergency
medical services vehicle" means
any privately or publicly owned
land or water vehicle that is designed,
constructed, reconstructed,
maintained, equipped,
or operated for, and is used for,
or intended to be used for, land
or water transportation of sick or

injured persons requiring or

likely to require medical attention
during transport.​

​

 

[alphatrauma]

Ahhh... so in essence, FDs can use the "star of life" (slapped on an engine) in order to circumvent/facilitate meeting required field hours. Interesting

 

[VentMedic]

Ahhh... so in essence, EDs can use the "star of life" (slapped on an engine) in order to circumvent/facilitate meeting required field hours. Interesting

ALS engines are very common first responders in many parts of the country. However, they do not transport and those Paramedics will often return to service when Rescue or an ambulance with Paramedics arrive. However, there are situations where the transport is a BLS ambulance and the Paramedic from the engine will have to ride in to the ED on the ambulance. That may take the engine out of service as well as the ambulance.

The best clinical experience it the one that allows for the most patient contact be it "BLS or ALS".

 

[Sasha]

Sleep overs aren't necessarily bad. If you have are suburban stations you never know when calls will come in and being at the station all day iNcreases the chane of patient contact

 

[Ridryder911]

So let me see if this is correct. Students get to sleep on their clinicals?

 

[medic417]

So let me see if this is correct. Students get to sleep on their clinicals?

All quality programs that I am aware of fail you immediately and remove you from the program with no refund if caught sleeping during internship. If it gets slow you should be studying if all station chores are complete.

 

[Sasha]

All quality programs that I am aware of fail you immediately and remove you from the program with no refund if caught sleeping during internship. If it gets slow you should be studying if all station chores are complete.

Seriously, you can only study for so long, and if you're there for 24 hours you are expected not to sleep? Wow, talk about a dangerous drive home.

 

[daedalus]

All quality programs that I am aware of fail you immediately and remove you from the program with no refund if caught sleeping during internship. If it gets slow you should be studying if all station chores are complete.

I would certainly hope not!
Sleeping is a natural and needed body function and those who do 12 and 24 hour shifts with their preceptor certainly are going to fall asleep many times during their internship. Like sasha has said, one can only study for so long, and plus, I am not paying for school to clean someone else's station beyond the messes I create and to help out with some daily cleaning.

 

[Ridryder911]

Seriously, you can only study for so long, and if you're there for 24 hours you are expected not to sleep? Wow, talk about a dangerous drive home.

Hence, why you should not be doing more than 12 hour clinicals. You are a student and the only role is to be a student. Down time should be studying and reviewing.

I agree, sounds like a cheesy way to get more hours without substance.

R/r 911

 

[Sasha]

I would certainly hope not!
Sleeping is a natural and needed body function and those who do 12 and 24 hour shifts with their preceptor certainly are going to fall asleep many times during their internship. Like sasha has said, one can only study for so long, and plus, I am not paying for school to clean someone else's station beyond the messes I create and to help out with some daily cleaning.

I once did at a station that was slow and expected you to only study when not on calls, couldn't even help with cleaning. By the end of my 9th hour of studying, we got a call. I was so mentally overloaded, had the biggest headache ever, that the call was a complete waste because I did not learn a thing. Needless to say I never returned to that station.

 

[Sasha]

Hence, why you should not be doing more than 12 hour clinicals. You are a student and the only role is to be a student. Down time should be studying and reviewing.

I agree, sounds like a cheesy way to get more hours without substance.

R/r 911

So, what is the difference between doing a 24 hour shift and two 12 hour shifts with no patients? You are still getting credits for the hours regardless.

 

[daedalus]

Hence, why you should not be doing more than 12 hour clinicals. You are a student and the only role is to be a student. Down time should be studying and reviewing.

I agree, sounds like a cheesy way to get more hours without substance.

R/r 911

I agree, but for the schools that do require you to be placed on a 24 hour shift with your preceptor, I would hope some sleep is involved.

Now, if we compare EMS clinicals to clinicals for RNs or other professionals, we can see our weakness. An RN student will see many patients during just a few hours, and will be constantly working. An EMS student will maybe see one patient in a few hours.

 

[medic417]

Sleeping is a natural and needed body function and those who do 12 and 24 hour shifts with their preceptor certainly are going to fall asleep many times during their internship. Like sasha has said, one can only study for so long, and plus, I am not paying for school to clean someone else's station beyond the messes I create and to help out with some daily cleaning.

On a 24 I could see allowing sleep. On a 12 dismissed, if you can not stay up 12 hours you are either coming in after to much partying or not healthy enough to be in EMS. Show up professionally dressed, well rested, ready to work.

As to cleaning, if a student cleans w/o being asked the student will find the crews will look for ways to get you your skills. If you just show up they will just run call like normal and not let you do extra stuff, making the internship even less educational than many already are.

 

[medic417]

So, what is the difference between doing a 24 hour shift and two 12 hour shifts with no patients? You are still getting credits for the hours regardless.

We do not count hours alone. You must get the skills as well in order to complete the course. I am aware of students getting 5 times the required hours before completing.

 

[Sasha]

I agree, but for the schools that do require you to be placed on a 24 hour shift with your preceptor, I would hope some sleep is involved.

Now, if we compare EMS clinicals to clinicals for RNs or other professionals, we can see our weakness. An RN student will see many patients during just a few hours, and will be constantly working. An EMS student will maybe see one patient in a few hours.

An RN does clinicals in a hospital where there are always patients... that is hardly comparable.

 

[Sasha]

We do not count hours alone. You must get the skills as well in order to complete the course. I am aware of students getting 5 times the required hours before completing.

I got most of my skills checked off in the ER, saved for a few specific ones, so I don't really see the difference between a 24 hour clinical and two 12 hour clinicals if they have ER clinicals and get their skills checked off there.

 

[medic417]

I got most of my skills checked off in the ER, saved for a few specific ones, so I don't really see the difference between a 24 hour clinical and two 12 hour clinicals if they have ER clinicals and get their skills checked off there.

We require interns to actually see and treat XX number of patients on the ambulance with at least XX requiring ALS interventions at the Paramedic level.

The interns have another set number of hours, skills, patients required in the various hospital departments.

Some can be combined at school discretion to get the required amounts.

 

[Ridryder911]

Areas that have a history of low call volume should be discouraged or did away with. Coffee clinicals only have a point if there is time to study. You are there as a student not employee. Even though you should have some of the same responsibilities, you still are in the student mode.

Minimum number patient contacts is great, but should again emphasized minimum and should as well have hour(s) attached. I will refuse 24 hour clinicals at my service (yes, we do 24 also) the crews need some down time from students too.

I still wonder why the emphasis of "cramming" is so necessary within EMS? What is the hurry and bypassing the whole purpose of learning and absorption of material? We rush through material and we see the final product?

Is what we doing working? Obviously not.

R/r 911