Your opinion please.

[coloradoemt]

16 year old girl is at the gym for volleyball practice. She hurts her knee such that it will not straighten out. The coach finds her on the floor laying on her back in a fetal type position. Girl is in extreme pain. Coach calls for another coach with the football team to come over and assist. FB coach is an EMT on town Volly dept. FB coach identifies himself as such. Parents are called. Coaches straighten out the leg without checking pulse. Coaches and player feel a pop in the knee. Player screams in pain. Knee swells up. Emt coach leaves after saying nothing is wrong. 911 is called. Medic shows up and does assessment, cuts off sock, checks pulse, immobilizes knee, transports to ED. ED DOC thinks torn ACL.


Any comments on this? What should the parents do? Can they do anything? h34r:

 

[TTLWHKR]

They could sue his *** off.

Unless it doesn't have a pulse, you don't move it. Immobilize in place.

 

[CaptainPanic]

Bumass coach sounds to me like. He has to understand that ONE, he did not do the procedures and patient assessment correctly. TWO he abandoned his patient if he left before the ambulance crew arrived. THREE he did not act in the best interest of the pt.

And yes if I were the parent I would sue his *** off.

he has to realize this wasnt just banged knee in football this was a serious injury and he possibly made it worse.

-Capn

 

[TexasMedic]

First off this is a classic case of pt. abandoment.

and second:

He obviously forgot the basics: check pulse, if present imbolize and splint as-is!!

 

[coloradoemt]

Thank you for that. I was looking for someone to start up with a standard of care type answer. I cannot find anywhere where it states a basic can manipulate an extremity other than when circulation is not present. I would not have run the call anything like this guy did... especially since it was my daughter. More to the story, from information given to me by my wife after the leg was straightened out, I called the ambulance in from my job 30 miles away. I am just so furious right now I thought seeking all of your opinions would be a fantastic thing to do... Keep me on an even keel... B)

 

[CaptainPanic]

DANG! :blink: h34r: I would sue on the following grounds:

Assault of a minor
Abandonment
Damages
Child endangerment

You could also go before the school board to have his coaching and teaching privileges revoked and he is to be released from contract immediately before he causes further harm to another student athlete

Also make sure his employer knows so that he will get relieved of his duties until further notice. He is a danger to the public if he is pulling stunts like this.

CO, as a parent myself, I have to stand behind you and be concerned because Im also putting my daughter in this situation, shes only 2 but still............

-Capn

 

[Wingnut]

I agree with what everyone said. I'm not one of those sue happy people but in this case I think something needs to be done. It sounds like that coach realized he screwed up and made sure to leave before the REAL EMS got there. Did you inform her doctor of what happened? What did he think? He could probably tell you whether the coach did more damage or not.

How is your daughter doing now? Wish her well for me, and good luck in all this. It's a mess, but you definitely have a case.

 

[rescuecpt]

rather than sue, I would pursue disciplinary action/retraining through the DOH. If you want to punish the guy, the best way to do it is through making sure he doesn't hurt anyone else, instead of hurting his financial interests. He's a coach, he probably doesn't have anything worth suing for to begin with.

 

[Summit]

Take that guy out!!!!

 

[TTLWHKR]

Originally posted by coloradoemt@Sep 12 2005, 11:05 PM
I cannot find anywhere where it states a basic can manipulate an extremity other than when circulation is not present.

WEMTB

But only when ground transport is by foot and transportation to an ER is prolonged for a period of two hours or more, in a wilderness setting. This is one of the few WEMS protocols that are not put to exception.

The WEMTB can straighten or realign the fractured limb to form a cast of stalking or Kerlix and Duct tape with SAM Splints. This is to be done when pulse is or is not present, to make the patient most comfortable, and prevent tissue damage and hemorrhage. I taught WEMS for six years.

 

[coloradoemt]

I want to thank those of you who responded to my dilema. I was hoping for more opinions from the other 60 viewers of this thread.

I am not sue happy either. I almost feel bad about even thinking about it. This is not the first time this EMT has screwed up either so I deffinately want to do something to hamper his ability to practice.

 

[Chimpie]

Originally posted by coloradoemt@Sep 13 2005, 10:04 PM
I was hoping for more opinions from the other 60 viewers of this thread.

It's not 60 viewers, but 60 views. I personally have read the thread like 10 times, your initial post and all of the responses. You alone probably have viewed it at least 4 times.

Does that makes sense? :blink:

 

[MMiz]

My first reaction as an EMT was "There is no way. This violates almost every rule of EMS."

This guy was a coach at a school. He is probably making no money or nominal money for doing it. I've never heard of a coach making more than $1 for the time they actually put into what they do. Why do I mention this? Because this man must love what he does to be doing it. As a teacher he must also love what he does. I think we can all agree that he meant no harm.

Second, as a teacher, and also working for the EMS service that serves my school, I'm still a teacher during school hours, and I can almost guarantee he is too. Was he toned out for this call? Did he have a duty to act? I doubt it. He's acting in the capicity of a coach, not an EMT. At school I'm not even on the list of teachers that are trained for the AED. It's a liability thing.

No one knew that your daughter would have a torn ACL by his actions. Sure he should have splinted it in place, but he made the mistake as and did the opposite.

Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason, it's the american way. Whether or not you do it is a choice you and your family will have to make. You have to remind yourself that:
A. He's a teacher - He loves working with youth
B. He's a coach - See A and add he loves a sport
C. He's an EMT - He has limited training, and he knows when he actually took his EMT course or when the last time he worked in the field was.
D. People make mistakes.


I'm sure a lawyer will pick up your case, but did he really have a duty to act as an EMT? Was he toned out? Dispatched? Did he work as an EMT for the school?

How is your daughter doing?

 

[MMiz]

I'm going to add that I'm furious that people would just plain out yell "Sue his *** off."

The ED doctor thinks it may be an ACL. What did the orthopedic surgeon say? What did the MRI show? What damages do you have?

You're going to sue a coach for punitive damages? Pain and suffering? Get ready for the fight of your life.

 

[ffemt8978]

Originally posted by MMiz@Sep 13 2005, 07:34 PM
Was he toned out for this call? Did he have a duty to act? I doubt it. He's acting in the capicity of a coach, not an EMT. At school I'm not even on the list of teachers that are trained for the AED. It's a liability thing.

The moment he announced himself as an EMT, he had a duty to respond and render care. If he would have said, "I know first aid, can I help?" then he wouldn't be facing possible abandoment charges.

 

[MedicPrincess]

Originally posted by coloradoemt@Sep 13 2005, 09:04 PM
This is not the first time this EMT has screwed up either so I deffinately want to do something to hamper his ability to practice.

You need to file this with your state certification board, both the EMT certification AND teaching certification boards. I agree, sueing the coach will probably cost you more than it is worth.

Your real power comes in words. Write your letter and file your complain. At the very least, as soon as he announced himself as an EMT he had a duty to act. By his acting outside his scope of practice then leaving the patient before anybody was there to accept care, someone should at least look into his actions. Also as the coach, he is responsible for any number of kids at anytime.

What happens in a game if a kids gets hurt? Does the EMT Coach go out, look at the kid, tell'em they aren't hurt and they need to get back in the game? This doesn't sound like the type of coach I would want coaching my son, or EMT I would want responding to my call.

 

[CaptainPanic]

Agreed 100%

 

[HotNoldEMTchick]

Originally posted by CaptainPanic@Sep 14 2005, 09:15 AM
Agreed 100%

I agree too.

I am a coach myself....and also a (hopefully-soon-to-be) certified EMT....but still...
I would think my duty first would be as a coach.... to control the scene, the kids...etc... Make sure the kid is okay... get the parents involved... (the coach acted without parental permission, right? Isn't that a requirement?? That there needs to be parental consent when there is a child involved?)

If one of my children got injured, I would safely move them off the field if possible... and contact their parents, or if their parents were already there, get them involved immediately. I would advise them to take their child to the ER, or if the child requires assistance in going to the ER, offer to call the amulance service to assist, because they would have the proper equipment to stabilze the injury, and/or offer pain relief....

He should have just done the basics... ABC's... and then get the outside resources that were better equipped to handle the injury... she could have needed morphine for pain...

 

[coloradoemt]

Thanks for the babysitting effort chimpie...

Here is some more information. First the coaches are there according to the school policies to render first aid and first aid only. Past that they call the parents and make a 911 decision. This coach did not say he was trained in first aid but as an EMT. Next bit of info. One of my daughters friends who was injured before VB season was by her side and stayed throughout up untill transport. She is stating to investigators into this incident that the EMT has asked her to change her story.

I do not plan on sueing this guy it is not my style. He just needs to be held accountable for his actions after he made contact with my daughter. As for duty to act that is irrelevant. He decided to act, made a treatment decision, and then bailed after.

This whole deal is about as ugly a situation as you could imagine. Everyone including us wants it to just go away but I have 100's of other kids to think of now and if I don't send some sort of message now, how bad might he hurt a kid later....

Thank you all for your opinions.

This saga is sure to continue.... unfortunately

 

[Wingnut]

Originally posted by MMiz@Sep 13 2005, 09:34 PM
My first reaction as an EMT was "There is no way. This violates almost every rule of EMS."

This guy was a coach at a school. He is probably making no money or nominal money for doing it. I've never heard of a coach making more than $1 for the time they actually put into what they do. Why do I mention this? Because this man must love what he does to be doing it. As a teacher he must also love what he does. I think we can all agree that he meant no harm.

Second, as a teacher, and also working for the EMS service that serves my school, I'm still a teacher during school hours, and I can almost guarantee he is too. Was he toned out for this call? Did he have a duty to act? I doubt it. He's acting in the capicity of a coach, not an EMT. At school I'm not even on the list of teachers that are trained for the AED. It's a liability thing.

No one knew that your daughter would have a torn ACL by his actions. Sure he should have splinted it in place, but he made the mistake as and did the opposite.

Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason, it's the american way. Whether or not you do it is a choice you and your family will have to make. You have to remind yourself that:
A. He's a teacher - He loves working with youth
B. He's a coach - See A and add he loves a sport
C. He's an EMT - He has limited training, and he knows when he actually took his EMT course or when the last time he worked in the field was.
D. People make mistakes.


I'm sure a lawyer will pick up your case, but did he really have a duty to act as an EMT? Was he toned out? Dispatched? Did he work as an EMT for the school?

How is your daughter doing?

MMiz, I understand where you're coming from on this post, BUT just because someone is a teacher/coach doesn't mean they really love kids, or what they are doing. Let me take another spin at it..

He may be some pompous jerk that got into the field for some other reason,(no other jobs, likes the "control" over children, etc ) He sees an accident, runs in claiming he's an EMT and the first thing he does is something no EMT would ever do. My impression tells me he wanted to play Mr. Macho and realized too late he screwed up and ran for the hills. If he really CARED, he would have stayed with the student until someone came to be with her or take her to a dr.

Maybe he meant no intentional harm, but his intentions sound more to show off.

#1. Not everyone becomes an EMT to help people, Not every teacher adores kids. Way too many times, it's a ego/status thing. I've personally seen this A LOT and it disgusts me.

#2. "Suing his *** off" may be the only way to get results in this case. I feel horrible that I may end up having to sue my doc over my ankle. I definitely have a case, but I'm not doing it out of vengence, I'm doing it to cover the costs of the second surgery. In most cases, suing is not the answer, but in others it is a viable if not the only option that will deliver results.