Why EMS degree could be the standard come 2025

[Lo2w]

I agree that it’s hard to fathom how for the “day-to-day medic” the degree currently makes sense. But I can also see how the basic fundamentals that a degree affords can help many who lack intrinsic critical thinking skills.

I think any degree for a line medic would have to branch out of the typical trauma and medical care that's currently the curriculum. Those core skills would certainly be the backbone but I think a degree that incorporates elements of mental health and crisis intervention, addiction issues, aging populations, management of chronic illness - to name a few - would go a long way to better addressing the needs of many of our patients.

 

[VentMonkey]

I think a degree that incorporates elements of mental health and crisis intervention, addiction issues, aging populations, management of chronic illness - to name a few - would go a long way to better addressing the needs of many of our patients.

Respectfully, none of those topics interest many in my position who don’t have degrees. The same could be said for EMS management degrees.

They also don’t address the majority of the patients we encounter. How will this benefit our sector, let alone pique our interest long enough to hang in there for the whole two to four years?

 

[Lo2w]

Respectfully, none of those topics interest many in my position who don’t have degrees. The same could be said for EMS management degrees.

They also don’t address the majority of the patients we encounter. How will this benefit our sector, let alone pique our interest long enough to hang in there for the whole two to four years?

Respectfully, none of those topics interest many in my position who don’t have degrees. The same could be said for EMS management degrees.

They also don’t address the majority of the patients we encounter. How will this benefit our sector, let alone pique our interest long enough to hang in there for the whole two to four years?

Maybe we run in different circles? I'm just pointing out that with changing patient populations those are areas I feel, at least in the areas I've worked, where training/education has lacked and would be beneficial as part of a degree. As someone else pointed out getting away from a purely protocol driven mindset to having a better understating of the hows and whys with physiology might help improve service as well.

 

[VentMonkey]

Maybe we run in different circles?

Same, but different. What you’re advocating is more along the lines of the day-to-day street paramedic dealings.

It would absolutely have benefited me as a new paramedic. It would more than likely enlighten many new paramedics to be.

My question was more rhetoric than anything.The aeromedical subset has typically been at the forefront—at least in The States—when it comes to degrees, none of which are aeromedical related.

My question is, what about those who’d be game for a 2, or 4 year critical care driven degree?

 

[SandpitMedic]

Critical care training should be the basis for any Bachelors Degree- if that’s what we’re talking. A&P, pharm, medical terminology, hard sciences, and gen ed for an AS.

Mike, to your point of our specific disagreement, general A&P is not overkill for line paramedics IMO. And general education course factor in as Tigger mentioned.

It isn’t just about what day-to-day utilization of such higher education courses would do. It is about moving the entire profession forward and evolving much like other professions in the healthcare world. The benefit is that we have better educated (generally and medically) line paramedics who will have an expanded and much more rounded knowledge base when treating the 3am granny - or when they are treating us when we are ill injured...

(Just kidding about that last part, I’ll drive myself to the hospital with one arm before calling 911 )

I didn’t mean to come off so strong, but saying higher education is not warranted for line medics are fighting words. If at the very least such education could open doors to paramedics seeking upward mobility and having the background to obtain it, and get out of EMS... then to me it is worth it. Although, there will be other benefits (which I have stated as nauseam in other threads) to higher education as demonstrated by our colleagues in the healthcare arena.

 

[Peak]

I will say that getting my biology degree did make me a better medic, both on the streets and back at the station. Math classes helped when we were building out apparatus, social arts with dealing with the public, anatomy/phys/pathophys on patients (I took the 400 level classes as well as the standard A&P 1&2). I've seen plenty of medics with a variety of non-EMS/fire degrees that benefited them.

I do think that there is some fear in the fire service from officers about medics having degrees. I had some officers with masters degrees who were all about us going to school, but we had some officers and chiefs who didn't even have a bachelor's and you could tell that they fely like their leadership was threatened.

 

[Bishop2047]

I do think that there is some fear in the fire service from officers about medics having degrees. I had some officers with masters degrees who were all about us going to school, but we had some officers and chiefs who didn't even have a bachelor's and you could tell that they fely like their leadership was threatened.

This is one of the major hindrances to any profession that is attempting to bolster credentials, or raise the point of entry. Not only from those in leadership but those with seniority.

It is as shame and I hope I am never the type that will try to keep others down for my benefit. Call me a wide eyes Newbie (only 9 years in) but I want to do this job for a long time, and want the profession to be in a better place when I leave.

The argument that class X goes too far in depth and is not applicable to the job, is a silly argument, and will only keep the profession where it is. We encounter all manner of patients and I can never understand someone who says something akin to "Meh my knowledge is good enough".

General Ed classes are great and make you a more well rounded clinician. I took a bunch or nutrition, human resource, and research based classes for my general ed courses. Those most certainly have helped me in my EMS career.

I live and practice outside the US but in my time there there is no question that this needs to happen, and allowing such low level training to continue only hurts the profession's reputation overall.

 

[SandpitMedic]

Before I say anything (else)- I just wanna sayyyy....
I know this is like... a safe space and all.... but can everyone stop being so sensitive? Or have SJW feelings become so pervasive in EMS that we can’t have a man to man conversation without getting butt hurty. I have spent a lot of time on a rig, and it ain’t no place for the meek or delicate. This is our forum, so neither should it be meek or delicate.

I can take it- just as good as I can give it. We can have a discussion without singing Kumbaya, and every disagreement is not a debate. Anyone who has worked around the rig and the station should know this.

Maybe I’m on my own here in my thinking. I’m okay with that. “Moderation is for Canadians”

 

[Tigger]

Before I say anything (else)- I just wanna sayyyy....
I know this is like... a safe space and all.... but can everyone stop being so sensitive? Or have SJW feelings become so pervasive in EMS that we can’t have a man to man conversation without getting butt hurty. I have spent a lot of time on a rig, and it ain’t no place for the meek or delicate. This is our forum, so neither should it be meek or delicate.

I can take it- just as good as I can give it. We can have a discussion without singing Kumbaya, and every disagreement is not a debate. Anyone who has worked around the rig and the station should know this.

Maybe I’m on my own here in my thinking. I’m okay with that.

Yea, this is the attitude that we are trying to avoid in this forum. It is not social justice to ask for people to just speak with a civil tone, it is common courtesy. Look no farther than facebook EMS pages to see people fling barbs at each other all day long in an attempt to make a point. If your point is completely lost in your bravado, did you really make a point?

This community is envisioned to function at a higher level than the average page and part of that is speaking to each other with respect.

Also if you don't wish to talk to me, our crew, or patients with respect, you can find your way out my truck too. This whole attitude about EMS being a place for "tough" people is getting old. It isn't helping our staggering mental health issues, that's for sure.

 

[SandpitMedic]

Then as gentlemen, we can disagree.
Here is my counter- Just because I can debate and disagree does not mean it is or has to be rude, disrespectful, or uncivil.

I suppose it is all a matter of perception. One man’s insult is another man’s joke

My perception is the “attitude that we are trying to avoid in this forum” is not congruent with real life. Functioning at a higher level sounds nice, but it’s an EMS forum- not the JPL or Fine Art forum...No one said you have to be a tough guy, just that you don’t have to choose to get offended by everything.

I made a simple post that translates to encouraging people to use their words with logic and rationale instead of emotions and feelings and feeling slighted by being opposed. Bravado has nothing to do with it.

(And not to toot everyone’s EMS horn, but it does take a special kind of person and mindset to do the things that EMS does, tougher one could say. That doesn’t mean we should ignore the mental health issues plaguing public service [not just EMS]but that is a topic for an entirely different thread).

 

[SandpitMedic]

Also- “functioning at a higher level.” I love the verbiage.

I find humor in the irony of this being a thread about upping the ante to paramedic education while some are opposed to it.

I mean- aren’t we just trying to function at a higher level around here?

 

[jgmedic]

In the better EMS oriented CA fire depts, degrees are mandatory to promote past Cpt and in some depts to make Cap. It doesn't have to be an EMS or Fire related degree. Higher education is a good thing, and while it may not have a direct effect on your ability to function as a medic, I really feel like it does make you a more well-rounded provider. Funny thing is, a few years ago a dept in NorCal didn't give anyone without minimum a BA a chance at the written test. First time I've ever seen that. not every Fire agency is anti-education, in fact, the better ones are all for it.

 

[SandpitMedic]

Right @jgmedic, higher education is something we should strive for as individuals and as a profession. Some agencies and jurisdictions already acknowledge that. Those departments probably have great paramedics.

I’ll say that I complained about having to do generalEd coursework as well. I found that it eventually paid off in multiple ways... even if I don’t care about Fine Art, Native American Studies, or Intro to Computers... or Algebra...

Additionally, this is how it works. You have to jump through the hoops. We can’t parcel out degrees only for paramedics that aren’t part of the continuum of accredited higher education.

 

[Summit]

Exceptional (fire) agencies are not the problem.

The problem is they are the exception to the traditional agenda of big status quo players, like IAFF.

 

[mgr22]

I have stated this repeatedly while also asking repeatedly in these threads for SOMEONE to define how it changes anything about taking care of an ill person at 3am. I'm actually open to hearing why!

I realize I'm only addressing a very small part of your post, but since you're asking for an opinion, I'll give you mine.

Around 3AM (and other times), I encountered patients who seemed to enjoy discussing matters that had nothing to do with their illness/injury during transport. The subjects they raised involved other industries (besides EMS), other occupations, history, philosophy, current events, finance, books, movies, personal relationships, science, politics, religion, and probably another half-dozen I've forgotten. I was not an expert on most topics, but my broad-based education -- a requirement of the school I attended -- helped me carry on those conversations and even introduce some of my own thoughts on those matters. The give and take seemed to relax those patients and make them less preoccupied with their medical conditions. I realize none of that is scientific.

At our destinations, I sometimes had the same kind of dialog with doctors, nurses, etc. I'd like to think they helped establish working relationships that were mutually beneficial, although I can't prove it.

I don't think those examples are the best reasons to get a degree, but they might be the best reasons at 3 AM.

 

[FiremanMike]

Critical care training should be the basis for any Bachelors Degree- if that’s what we’re talking. A&P, pharm, medical terminology, hard sciences, and gen ed for an AS.

Mike, to your point of our specific disagreement, general A&P is not overkill for line paramedics IMO. And general education course factor in as Tigger mentioned.

It isn’t just about what day-to-day utilization of such higher education courses would do. It is about moving the entire profession forward and evolving much like other professions in the healthcare world. The benefit is that we have better educated (generally and medically) line paramedics who will have an expanded and much more rounded knowledge base when treating the 3am granny - or when they are treating us when we are ill injured...

(Just kidding about that last part, I’ll drive myself to the hospital with one arm before calling 911 )

I didn’t mean to come off so strong, but saying higher education is not warranted for line medics are fighting words. If at the very least such education could open doors to paramedics seeking upward mobility and having the background to obtain it, and get out of EMS... then to me it is worth it. Although, there will be other benefits (which I have stated as nauseam in other threads) to higher education as demonstrated by our colleagues in the healthcare arena.

I envision a degree pathway that sets medics up for the next level.. An educator pathway, an advanced practice provider pathway, or a management pathway. With that said, I could see the value in a critical care pathway, one that includes advanced physiology courses, clinical rotations with MICU/Rotor, ICU, etc.. One of the semester coursework could be a prep course for the FP-C/CCP exams.. Could be interesting..

I reiterate an earlier comment I made, that we have to get either colleges or management on board with being flexible in scheduling. My wife is a nurse going back to school and her job didn't give her a whole lot of grief about working around her school schedule. Historically EMS and Fire/EMS management have little motivation to work around college schedules, and Lab every Monday at 2pm doesn't work for the majority of EMS schedules..

 

[SandpitMedic]

I envision a degree pathway that sets medics up for the next level.. An educator pathway, an advanced practice provider pathway, or a management pathway. With that said, I could see the value in a critical care pathway, one that includes advanced physiology courses, clinical rotations with MICU/Rotor, ICU, etc.. One of the semester coursework could be a prep course for the FP-C/CCP exams.. Could be interesting..

I reiterate an earlier comment I made, that we have to get either colleges or management on board with being flexible in scheduling. My wife is a nurse going back to school and her job didn't give her a whole lot of grief about working around her school schedule. Historically EMS and Fire/EMS management have little motivation to work around college schedules, and Lab every Monday at 2pm doesn't work for the majority of EMS schedules..

I like it. I love it. Great idea for degrees and future opportunities. Hopefully, with this kind of educational requirements though, paramedic would not be a stepping stone to other professions, but rather it’s own viable career entity with increased compensation.

The scheduling thing is an interesting take. If you are working as an EMT and want to advance to Paramedic, you already have to take time off and not work through a full time program. (At least when I went to P school that was the case, and working full time wasn’t really an option if you wanted to be successful in the program). I’m picking up that you are talking about people going back to school in a sense; however, any degree mandate implemented would likely be for newcomers. Existing paramedics would be grandfathered in as is the case with most changes in educational standards.

 

[Kavsuvb]

IMO, I think an EMS degree would be a great idea for any Paramedic who wants to specialize in Critical care, Advance practicing Paramedic and Community Paramedic. It would put medics on the same footing with Associate Degree Nurses. The way I would look at it, is look at how LPN's transition to RN as a model for EMS. For example, you can come in with an EMT, get your Paramedic cert and work Street EMS. When you want to Move up into critical care Paramedic or Flight Paramedic, you would need to get an Associates degree. Advance practicing paramedic, Community Paramedic, Emergency Management would be a Bachelors degree requirement.

 

[Kavsuvb]

To me those gen ed credits give students the ability to develop study habits, the ability to do a little research, and think critically. All of these are important to pretty much every profession, the same goes for paramedics. Could you get by without, I suppose? Will you see a difference in street level medicine? Maybe? It seems like many paramedics lack the critical thinking skills to appropriately treat patients without formulaic guidelines. Will a switch away from such a model improve care? I don't think we know, and I don't think we even know how to measure improvement at this point?

And frankly, if we practice medicine and are a (smallish) part of healthcare, should we not have similar education programs to the rest of the industry? Every other degreed provider has gen-ed classes, are we different? I am not going to say that those courses make them better providers as a matter of fact. But if we want a seat at the adult's table, it might be worth looking the part.

As for the A&P part, it would be nice if lower level clinically-oriented anatomy courses existed. I do not wish to get rid of A&P requirements but I agree that the practicality could be improved.

Question Tigger, would you ever see the day where the states mandate paramedics be at an associate degree level in order to work in the field

 

[Tigger]

Question Tigger, would you ever see the day where the states mandate paramedics be at an associate degree level in order to work in the field

Sure, I believe Kansas and Oregon already require this. I really do not think it is an unattainable goal for most states, but there just isn't a want to do it. The National Registry requires you to have gone to a CAAHEP (Commission on Accreditation of Allied Health Education Programs) accredited program and of their requirements is that the programs need to be affiliated with an institution of higher learning (ie community college). So for most folks going to medic school now, they're well on their way to getting an AAS.