Why are Paramedics paid so little?

[triemal04]

,last time I checked there were not 100 or so RN applicants per job.

Check again boyo. While it may vary a bit from hospital to hospital and state to state, the numbers are on the way up. As is the call for BSN instead of ASN's...hmmm....

,Forcing an increase in education standards thinking employers will reward that education is naive to say the least.

Not entirely. Expecting employers to automatically increase the pay just because you hold a degree isn't completely realistic, though it's not completely wrong either. But expecting employers to increase your pay because you are able to provide them with more money because of your degree, that's a completely different ballgame.

I hate to compare the professions, but look at what happened with nurses, and to some extent is still happening with NP's. The educational requirements went up to a standard minimum level that met a definable educational level, an associates degree, and nurses (and administrators) were able to argue that since their job was complex enough to require that additional training, and prove it by mandating that everyone met it, that they should be able to get better reimbursements from medicare/medicaid, insurance comanies, charge more for their care in-hospital, etc. And you know what? It worked. And pay for nurses increased. You can look and most medical professions are doing the same thing; RT's, pharmacists, physical therapists, hell, even x-ray techs are doing it!

What makes people in EMS think we are so special that it wouldn't work for us? Other than pure stupidity?

Wait...I just answered my own question.

 

[Level1pedstech]

Check again boyo. While it may vary a bit from hospital to hospital and state to state, the numbers are on the way up. As is the call for BSN instead of ASN's...hmmm....


Not entirely. Expecting employers to automatically increase the pay just because you hold a degree isn't completely realistic, though it's not completely wrong either. But expecting employers to increase your pay because you are able to provide them with more money because of your degree, that's a completely different ballgame.

I hate to compare the professions, but look at what happened with nurses, and to some extent is still happening with NP's. The educational requirements went up to a standard minimum level that met a definable educational level, an associates degree, and nurses (and administrators) were able to argue that since their job was complex enough to require that additional training, and prove it by mandating that everyone met it, that they should be able to get better reimbursements from medicare/medicaid, insurance comanies, charge more for their care in-hospital, etc. And you know what? It worked. And pay for nurses increased. You can look and most medical professions are doing the same thing; RT's, pharmacists, physical therapists, hell, even x-ray techs are doing it!

What makes people in EMS think we are so special that it wouldn't work for us? Other than pure stupidity?

Wait...I just answered my own question.

There is no money to spend,if there was they would be spending it. How about this,why dont we do better with the money we have before asking for more?

 

[triemal04]

These younger people coming into the field need to be aware of what awaits them in the real world. Low wages,crappy benefits,poor working conditions and fellow workers with horrible attitudes is just the start.

I highly suggest a bypass around field EMS and a path into the higher levels of health care. Besides what kind of message do you think the doom and gloomers are sending.

Perhaps you should stick to truck driving.

People should be aware of what the profession is like right now, meaning the good and the bad. They should also be aware of why it is like that (ie people like you), and what it would realistically take to improve things (which means much more than just increasing educational levels), where the profession is going, and where it could be going.

They should be aware of the resistance to change that they will encounter if they try and change things for the better by doing things in a manner that will work. They should be aware that asking for more without a definable reason that is more than a dramatic whine doesn't work. They should be aware that many people on the periphery of EMS will whine and complain, but since they aren't actually part of it have no say in what needs to happen. They should be aware that there are a lot of competing interests out there, many of whom are not doing things to improve EMS but to help themselves or their specific group. They should be aware that change comes slowly, that it does not happen all at once, and that keeping things the way they are will not make things better.

They should be aware that nobody will fix EMS for us. They should know it is a broken system that still functions, albeit only because nobody knows it's broken. They should know that we are the ones who need to step up and demand change, because nobody else will.

This is what people should be aware of before starting a career.

What message do I think people like you are sending? A pretty pathetic one actually.

 

[lateralligator]

Thanks, triemal04--I am MORE than willing to relocate. I HOPE to relocate. So there's that. Put my wanderlust to work!

 

[triemal04]

There is no money to spend,if there was they would be spending it. How about this,why dont we do better with the money we have before asking for more?

Actually, no, that isn't how it works. There is no reason for any reimbursement to increase, be it federal or private insurance, unless a reason is shown. Reimbursement rates are as low as they are because nobody can show a need for the services rendered, or any reason why a paramedic level call should get more than an EMT level call; after all, they both just have a few hours of vocational training.

Healthcare in this country is a buisness. Are you so naive that you actually think more money would be paid out for services rendered just because it's there? Holy hell...

 

[Level1pedstech]

Perhaps you should stick to truck driving.

People should be aware of what the profession is like right now, meaning the good and the bad. They should also be aware of why it is like that (ie people like you), and what it would realistically take to improve things (which means much more than just increasing educational levels), where the profession is going, and where it could be going.

They should be aware of the resistance to change that they will encounter if they try and change things for the better by doing things in a manner that will work. They should be aware that asking for more without a definable reason that is more than a dramatic whine doesn't work. They should be aware that many people on the periphery of EMS will whine and complain, but since they aren't actually part of it have no say in what needs to happen. They should be aware that there are a lot of competing interests out there, many of whom are not doing things to improve EMS but to help themselves or their specific group. They should be aware that change comes slowly, that it does not happen all at once, and that keeping things the way they are will not make things better.

They should be aware that nobody will fix EMS for us. They should know it is a broken system that still functions, albeit only because nobody knows it's broken. They should know that we are the ones who need to step up and demand change, because nobody else will.

This is what people should be aware of before starting a career.

What message do I think people like you are sending? A pretty pathetic one actually.

So the mills should keep cranking out providers into what in most areas is a saturated job market. Alot of these peopke never even end up with a job in pre hospital EMS. Almost everyday someone is on this site trying to get help finding work.

Yes I will stick to trucking,getting paid 97k a year to sit and hold a steering wheel is really rough but I think I can get by. Years ago I was weeks away from medic school when I started working in the ER where by the way my EMT skills were rewarded with pay equal to the medics I worked with on the outside.

Had I not chosen to move for a new job I would have stayed on part time until I retired from the teamsters. After retirement at 57 I would have gone full time in the ER doing 3 12's for 24.00+ per hour while collecting a very nice pension.

There are ways to be involved in emergency medicine and make a good living trouble is most people dont have the drive or work ethic that it takes.

 

[Level1pedstech]

I have a degree and make considerably more than that; not because of my degree though.

There's probably some exceptions, but off the top of my head I can't think of any place where having a degree will automatically get you a raise. If it's a field job with a variable starting pay it might be taken into consideration, but still probably not a gaurentee.

Most people will tell you that paramedics get paid ****...and they aren't completely wrong, but they aren't completely right either. Everybody can bring up stories about medic's getting paid $10-12/hr, but just because that's what happens in that particular area doesn't make it the norm, or mean that every place is like that.

There are plenty of well paying jobs with good benefits and decent retirement plans out there. You just have to a)put in the time and effort in finding them, b)be willing to go to the job, not expect it to come to you; ie move, and c)have the qualities/experience/education/personality that the service wants. Way to many people aren't willing to do these things and think their area is representative of the whole; hence why you get the line about how all paramedics don't get paid squat.

You can easily make close to 50K a year without killing yourself with overtime as a medic; for a job that pays that much you probably won't have to search to hard (depending on your area of course).

Average pay may be lower than it should be, but with a bit of effort and some brains you can easily increase that for yourself.

Really 50k, is that with a degree? For every ten medics how many of them will end up ever be non fire making 50k without massive OT,

 

[VFlutter]

There are ways to be involved in emergency medicine and make a good living trouble is most people dont have the drive or work ethic that it takes.

I completely lost track of your argument, you are arguing that paramedics should not increase their level of education because they are not paid enough yet you criticize them for not having the drive or work ethic and then expect companies to pay paramedics more so they will get education?

 

[Level1pedstech]

So hang on...an EMT-P with an associates degree makes $10-$17/hr? Or is that for an EMT-B?

Sorry for the confusion...I make about $36k as a massage therapist and will top out in a couple more years at maybe $40k. Im interested in paramedic training for more/ new challenges, very good health benefits (have none now) and MORE income (as in 50k+).

Am I barking up the wrong tree as far as income?

Im 48. Time's a-wastin.' :blink:

Why not do both?

 

[Level1pedstech]

I completely lost track of your argument, you are arguing that paramedics should not increase their level of education because they are not paid enough yet you criticize them for not having the drive or work ethic and then expect companies to pay paramedics more so they will get education?

Chase who said anything about medics, I was talking aout going tech to RN as a way to make money in emergency medicine.

 

[medicconnor]

I feel that in some states Paramedics get paid correctly for what they are allowed to preform, I feel in more agressive states that they get paid way to little.

I personally think that Nurses as a whole have made themselves appear to be more valuable in the world and they have as a unit be able to make it where they get respectable wages. I feel that EMS as a whole needs to find a way to be able to prove that we are more that just ambulance drives to the world and that the pay would follow. EMS is also fairly young compared to the world of nursing and Drs, and when it was established they truly were just ambulance drivers and that has kind of just stuck around.

 

[Level1pedstech]

Actually, no, that isn't how it works. There is no reason for any reimbursement to increase, be it federal or private insurance, unless a reason is shown. Reimbursement rates are as low as they are because nobody can show a need for the services rendered, or any reason why a paramedic level call should get more than an EMT level call; after all, they both just have a few hours of vocational training.

Healthcare in this country is a buisness. Are you so naive that you actually think more money would be paid out for services rendered just because it's there? Holy hell...

Put your big boy pants on calm down and lets go thru it again. Increasing the educational pedigree of medics is not going to earn them more pay in MOST cases. MOST employers would laugh at you if you EXPECTED them to pay more than what they can get by paying now. MOST pre hospital EMS workers will NEVER make it into one if those "dream jobs" alot of you talk about. Stop blowing sun shine up their back sides.

EMS is full of chumps working for wages that allow them to collect food stamps and other govt aid in MOST parts of the country. Am I wrong for pointing that out or am I being honest with the new people. Start with the chumps organize them and stand your ground if you think you have a battle worth winning. Take a lesson from the Teamsters,wait dont do that because it might get bloody and you could get hurt. You have a long tough road ahead of you,keep us posted.

 

[rescue1]

The answer to the problems with US EMS is not to just become ER nurses instead. No problem has ever been fixed by people ignoring it and doing something else.

 

[medicconnor]

Agreed!

 

[VFlutter]

Chase who said anything about medics, I was talking aout going tech to RN as a way to make money in emergency medicine.

Um this whole argument/thread is about medics? Maybe i misread something

 

[Level1pedstech]

The answer to the problems with US EMS is not to just become ER nurses instead. No problem has ever been fixed by people ignoring it and doing something else.

No but if you want to be rewarded for the time and effort that it takes to obtain a quality education it is. Then you take a little of your free time to give back to your community by helping to educate the providers you rely on. It sounds ultra simplistic but if you think just on the local level it is possible. Why is it things have to be elevated to a national level?

No one is ignoring the issue its just not a huge priority for most people. As far as doing something else thats an individual decision. The need to provide for my family in a slightly above average fashion is what drove me away from paid EMS.

 

[triemal04]

level1pedstech-

So the mills should keep cranking out providers into what in most areas is a saturated job market. Alot of these peopke never even end up with a job in pre hospital EMS. Almost everyday someone is on this site trying to get help finding work.

No, they shouldn't and it would be very beneficial if they stopped, but the way the system is set up there is nothing to stop them from doing what they do. Part of the reason why reform in how paramedics (and EMT's) are trained is needed. It's quite simple and germain to the rest of what I'm going to say: make it a national mandatory requirement that paramedic's have at minimum an associate's degree.

Once that is done the mills will become fewer and fewer. It will also decrease the number of new paramedic's, something which is needed as there are way, way to many currently. As the supply decreases the demand for that level of service will go up and the people willing to work for peanuts should drop. Add in that fewer people would want to become paramedic's anyway, especially in the beginning, and the result is the same. There are also other benefits, but I'll get to that in a minute.

After retirement at 57 I would have gone full time in the ER doing 3 12's for 24.00+ per hour while collecting a very nice pension.

Huh. And yet you don't seem to believe that it's appropriate for paramedic's, or that anything should be done to change conditions so that wage would be a more common reality. Huh.

Really 50k, is that with a degree? For every ten medics how many of them will end up ever be non fire making 50k without massive OT

Actually more than you think. While probably not a majority, it's not really that unheard of.

Increasing the educational pedigree of medics is not going to earn them more pay in MOST cases. MOST employers would laugh at you if you EXPECTED them to pay more than what they can get by paying now. MOST pre hospital EMS workers will NEVER make it into one if those "dream jobs" alot of you talk about. Stop blowing sun shine up their back sides.

I don't actually know how to respond to this.

EMS is full of chumps working for wages that allow them to collect food stamps and other govt aid in MOST parts of the country. Am I wrong for pointing that out or am I being honest with the new people.

You are absolutely not wrong to do that. It actually needs to be done more often.

edit: I should probably add that there are far, far more problems facing EMS in the US than just educational standards, and only increasing that would not be a blanket solution. It's just one step that needs to be taken for things to change, and one that would have a good sized impact. Also that many of the problems are not just faced by us.

*This post has been edited by a community leader to meet the rules of the forum while to the extent possible retaining it's content value*

 

[Level1pedstech]

Um this whole argument/thread is about medics? Maybe i misread something

To be honest I kinda lost track myself,like that never happens. I think my point was that if you want to be paid better than the average basic or medic you might have to be willing to pursue a position on the inside.

This can be done without additional education (EMT to ER Tech) but the hard work and effort it takes is more than alot of people are willing to put out. The pay off at least for me was 19.00 an hour as a tech instead of 12.00 working as a PMA on an ALS car. The medic I would have been assisting was making 15.00.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Ok let's open this back up as there was a good dialogue going until it slewed off the tracks. Please be aware this thread is now being watched. Let's get back on topic and keep it professional folks.

 

[Tigger]

So the mills should keep cranking out providers into what in most areas is a saturated job market. Alot of these peopke never even end up with a job in pre hospital EMS. Almost everyday someone is on this site trying to get help finding work.

Yes I will stick to trucking,getting paid 97k a year to sit and hold a steering wheel is really rough but I think I can get by. Years ago I was weeks away from medic school when I started working in the ER where by the way my EMT skills were rewarded with pay equal to the medics I worked with on the outside.

Had I not chosen to move for a new job I would have stayed on part time until I retired from the teamsters. After retirement at 57 I would have gone full time in the ER doing 3 12's for 24.00+ per hour while collecting a very nice pension.

There are ways to be involved in emergency medicine and make a good living trouble is most people dont have the drive or work ethic that it takes.

Could you suggest how there is a good way to make a living in emergency medicine in which one only works in emergency medicine? You state that the dream jobs that pay well do not exist in any sizable quantity, so what now? I don't think it's right nor realistic for others to follow in your footsteps and make their primary income outside of medicine. Most of us get into this fix to make it our living, are we all doing it wrong?