What's next? Fire or Medic?

akflightmedic

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When you force people to do many things in order to keep the ONE job they truly want, you end up with stuff like this.

Click link for full story:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/29/EMT_scandal_embarrasses_Mass_town/UPI-98491230571266/


The allegations were focused on the majority of the town's police officers, who are suspected of falsifying records to obtain bonus pay for also serving as EMT workers.

or this:

Of course "fire officials" say training is adequate. How come we never see articles like this in regards to Fire Training??? Where is the department's focus, where is the money spent?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/30/MN4M14R20R.DTL

Medics inadequately trained

Emergency experts cite insufficient training as a key factor affecting the city's 911 medical services.

Training is crucial because paramedics need to master an array of life-saving skills and identify patients who require urgent hospital care, such as stroke and trauma victims. Medics also must operate complex medical equipment to ascertain the adequacy of breathing and speed or control a patient's heart rate.

But San Francisco's Fire Department "continues to struggle with adequate staffing" for training its medics, Dr. John Brown, medical director of the San Francisco Emergency Medical Services Agency, wrote in August to the Fire Department.

Brown cited staffing deficiencies in training, quality improvement and data management as potentially affecting patient care. In recent years, the department's medical training staff has been reduced.

Hsieh said training for the city's medics is particularly weak for those who administer drugs or use intubation techniques to create a rescue airway for breathing.

Intubations are among the most risky activities for paramedics. San Francisco paramedics encounter about 750 to 800 patients each year who require intubations. But many of the city's paramedics rarely perform intubations, and they receive limited training in intubations of live patients, as opposed to mannequins and cadavers.

"The department needs to have the training opportunities necessary to help maintain proficiency in the absence of experience," Hsieh said. "It isn't like riding a bicycle, and there's the potential of people to die."

Fire officials insist that their training of medics is adequate.

"Our new influx of employees is very well-trained," said Assistant Deputy Fire Chief Pete Howes. "In the fog of battle, they're working for the good of the patient."

But, he added, the training staff for medics will probably be reduced further due to budget cuts.
 
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MattMedic

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"My goal is Firefighter Medic"

This is an oxymoron, please don't ever associate us insignificant mortals with the gods of fire.

In my opinion it comes down to one thing. If you want to be a fireman who justifies taking taxpayer dollars by pretending to treat the sick and injured then be a "Firefighter Medic". If you want to experience the true meaning of making a difference in people's lives, without the fanfare, recognition, groupies, etc., then be a paramedic for a for an agency that does strictly EMS. There are services that do pay very well and have decent benefits. I know fireman will argue that you can't beat their retirement and trust me when I say they are full of ****. There are plenty of ways to invest your money (mutual funds, etc.) where you can have quite a sum when you retire. The firefighting retirement fund is one of the biggest scams going. Most of them are too stupid, or just too lazy, to question the damn thing.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance, or the need for firefighters. They are definitely needed, just not at their current numbers, responsibilities, pay scale, etc. Let's face it, fighting fires is not a difficult job. Go ahead, throw out this whole fire science and pump theory bullsh!t all you want! It's not rocket science. Ask a fireman why he does the job he does and the replies range from "the pay", "the women" or the "benefits." Very few do it for the right reasons. I chose this job to help people and I enjoy the challenge of medicine. I don't do this job because it was the only way I could get on the department. Unfortunately, it is people with this attitude that staff many ALS ambulances for fire departments. These are people that have no desire doing 95% of what their job entails. How fortunate are we to have them grace us with their presence!
 

Sparky79

Forum Crew Member
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"My goal is Firefighter Medic"

This is an oxymoron, please don't ever associate us insignificant mortals with the gods of fire.

In my opinion it comes down to one thing. If you want to be a fireman who justifies taking taxpayer dollars by pretending to treat the sick and injured then be a "Firefighter Medic". If you want to experience the true meaning of making a difference in people's lives, without the fanfare, recognition, groupies, etc., then be a paramedic for a for an agency that does strictly EMS. There are services that do pay very well and have decent benefits. I know fireman will argue that you can't beat their retirement and trust me when I say they are full of ****. There are plenty of ways to invest your money (mutual funds, etc.) where you can have quite a sum when you retire. The firefighting retirement fund is one of the biggest scams going. Most of them are too stupid, or just too lazy, to question the damn thing.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance, or the need for firefighters. They are definitely needed, just not at their current numbers, responsibilities, pay scale, etc. Let's face it, fighting fires is not a difficult job. Go ahead, throw out this whole fire science and pump theory bullsh!t all you want! It's not rocket science. Ask a fireman why he does the job he does and the replies range from "the pay", "the women" or the "benefits." Very few do it for the right reasons. I chose this job to help people and I enjoy the challenge of medicine. I don't do this job because it was the only way I could get on the department. Unfortunately, it is people with this attitude that staff many ALS ambulances for fire departments. These are people that have no desire doing 95% of what their job entails. How fortunate are we to have them grace us with their presence!

This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read!
 
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EMTFL

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"My goal is Firefighter Medic"

This is an oxymoron, please don't ever associate us insignificant mortals with the gods of fire.

Let's face it, fighting fires is not a difficult job. Go ahead, throw out this whole fire science and pump theory bullsh!t all you want! It's not rocket science.

I too consider your post to be quite ignorant. As a matter of fact, I take quite offense to it. There IS a science to fighting fire. Sure, you put out the fire, but there are things to know that you CANT DO. I lost two friends in a flashover because they weren't trained properly, so don't tell me its "simple bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:".
 

reaper

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FF is a dedicated job, that should be kept separate from EMS. It is not a simple job. You need a fire science degree to fully understand everything about it. A lot of people just believe that it should be a job on it's own and not paired up with EMS.
 

Sparky79

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FF is a dedicated job, that should be kept separate from EMS. It is not a simple job. You need a fire science degree to fully understand everything about it. A lot of people just believe that it should be a job on it's own and not paired up with EMS.

While I disagree, I can respect this opinion and can see that the current system is flawed and needs some reorganization and more education and commitment from all levels of providers. My initial response to MattMedic's post was in reference to the belittling and general lack of respect to the fire service. No, it isn't "rocket science", but it is a skill that if not properly performed will endanger people's lives. It isn't just as easy as putting the wet stuff on the hot stuff, as the joke goes. Every profession can be viewed as insignificant and "not rocket science" depending on the point of view. Just ask an ER doc or trauma surgeon what their opinion is of the rocket scientists (read as Paramedics) and you can see what I mean.
 

MattMedic

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There is a degree of training involved in fighting fires, just not the extent that it's made out to be. I speaking from experience not out my ***. When you compare fire science, pump theory, use of a ladder to medicine there is absolutely no comparison. I've seen volunteer fire departments that are just as adequate in suppression techniques, overhaul and salvage as paid departments. So why in the hell is EMS put on the back burner of most (not all) fire-based EMS agencies? If a fire department is going run EMS they need set their priorities. Why am I sitting in a 6 hour class on pump theory for that 1 call out of a 100 I'm actually going to apply friction loss, psi, etc. I'm glad your offended, I've been offended too by the non-sense that is fire-based EMS!
 

MattMedic

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I too consider your post to be quite ignorant. As a matter of fact, I take quite offense to it. There IS a science to fighting fire. Sure, you put out the fire, but there are things to know that you CANT DO. I lost two friends in a flashover because they weren't trained properly, so don't tell me its "simple bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:".

I've seen several patients killed by improperly trained "firefighter medics."

Look, I'm sorry about your friends dying in a flashover. If it was due to improper, or lack thereof, training then someone should be held accountable. Do you know how many patients are suffering and dying due to lack of training by these so called firefighter medics. Don't get me wrong there are some outstanding fireman who are paramedics, just few and far between. I even know of a few EMS-based fire departments, but once again, they are very rare.
 

VentMedic

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I too consider your post to be quite ignorant. As a matter of fact, I take quite offense to it. There IS a science to fighting fire. Sure, you put out the fire, but there are things to know that you CANT DO. I lost two friends in a flashover because they weren't trained properly, so don't tell me its "simple bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:".

How many are also trying to be Paramedics and neglecting their Fire Fighting training? Even those that brag they can do it all may be fooling themselves when put to task and someone's life is on the line including their own.

Medicine is medicine and Fire is fire. For the sake of everyone's safety there should be those that specialize in one or the other at each scene. Those that have their mind and heart torn between two different professions can get people hurt or killed.
 
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Ridryder911

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I know Mattmedic and work with him. He has the experience of a Firefighter Paramedic, alike myself got tired of seeing propaganda being dished out. In my opinion, he is a fresh of breath air as he is truly dedicated to EMS and made the decision to leave a "popular" fire service after seeing the half truths.

In my 31+ years I truthfully say I have seen only a hand full of Fire Services that actually make the determination of enforcing EMS to be medical. I am sure there maybe others but in proportion it would be few.

I personally know of a Fire Department that is fighting against a private or third party EMS being placed into their town. The reason is simple.. money. They are in a large progressive area but refuse to advance to full ALS. They have developed a neat little system that requires on-call and have a set required overtime rate. This has increased their pay almost double. When evaluated it would be much more economical and provide better care to the area (which they only want to provide local only). Of course the Union is upset! How dare someone to think of patient care instead what is best for the firefighters!

As one that actually has a degree in Fire Science, I can attest there is a science to it; but in the real world most of the fire departments and firefighters rarely learn or utilize such. Even most Officers only receive training and very few have formal education in their chosen profession. Alike what Matt said, it is an important profession but grossly exaggerated. Fortunately, the public is never aware when there is mistakes made and every time they still come out the heroes even though a careless venting or wrong tactic might have been instituted.

I do ask again, what difference would there be if we would require a degree of Fire Protection prior to applying to a fire department? How many would still have the same interest, desire and I bet it would be amazing the number of applicants. As well, think of the type of fire suppression could be provided and the increase of prevention!

Again, I and most of those that are in administration of Fire Services know the real reason of interest in EMS. It is not patient care, it is justification and continuation of funding to be able to keep FTE and appropriations. They see a "gold pot" and it has EMS on it.


p.s. Welcome to the site Matt, glad to see you finally posted!

R/r 911
 
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medic417

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Fire trys and forces people to be jacks of all trades. Most fire I have seen choose to dumb down standards rather than encourage higher education. I respect fire fighters as I was one. I am as others mentioned tired of seeing fire use EMS to further its goals. There are more EMS calls than fire so by that EMS should be the priority. It is a medical field so should be specialized so the patients only get the best.
 
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EMTFL

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So I guess what I have gotten out of this thread and my original question is that I should start with Fire Standards now that I have my EMT.
 

firecoins

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So I guess what I have gotten out of this thread and my original question is that I should start with Fire Standards now that I have my EMT.

yes, do that. Try and get your fire without the medic. Why? You can get the medic later if you can't get hired.
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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So I guess what I have gotten out of this thread and my original question is that I should start with Fire Standards now that I have my EMT.


If you intend to be a fire fighter pursue fire degree. If you intend to be a medical professional pursue Paramedic degree.
 
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