What would happen if the NREMT required a degree?

Medic Tim

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But now you are in Canada.
The nursing programs there are also way ahead of the US for requirements and US ADNs barely can be called PNs there.

http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/BSCN.html

1700 hours of clinicals exceeds the US standard.

The schools that have BNs usually have even more hours. Yeah a 2 year RN can register in Canada but they need to finish a BSN or BN within a few years. Another reference point... our LPN program is 2 years.

But back to the topic.

I fully support higher education for EMS, but by itself it will most likely not take hold. The states would need to get on board or allow EMS to become an actual self regulating profession. There would also need to be a transition period (which could last quite a while) for the new "standards". It will also be very difficult to convince vollies and some (most) fire services.

I work in pretty remote areas. While it is the industry standard to work a 2 week on 2 week off rotation (oil field medical clinic), there are 911 services that operate on similar schedules to provide ALS and BLS coverage. They are able to fully cover a station with 4-5 employees and if they really want to push it 2-3 employees and local drivers. They are able to offer competitive pay and benefits along with providing rural residents access to healthcare. Transports to hospital can be hours each way.
 

Clipper1

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I fully support higher education for EMS, but by itself it will most likely not take hold. The states would need to get on board or allow EMS to become an actual self regulating profession. There would also need to be a transition period (which could last quite a while) for the new "standards". It will also be very difficult to convince vollies and some (most) fire services.

But there are a lot who are not vollies or with a FD who are not pro education. The numbers of those with a degree in EMS show that after 50 years education for even an associates degree is not acceptable. The states are not stupid and probably neither are those who came up with the "new" EMT labels. If those in the profession are not proactive, the states and other government agencies probably won't be either knowing the opposition and strong view points which could be turned against them. No elected official is going to want to "piss off EMS and Fire".

Other professions did have strong leaders who reached out first to educators to raise their standards and then to those in the profession or entering the profession in school systems. The community colleges could promote their degrees more but then some would turn it around as greed. Ambulance companies and FDs could pull their contracts with these colleges if the students started to rebel against even the mention of pushing a degree. You have already seen here the strong arguments.

Also, employers (hospitals, clinics) of other professions started advertising "Degree preferred" in their job section even when it was not required. RN employers have been doing this for years with the "BSN preferred" added to ads. Now with over 3 million RNs in the US, over 50% have BSNs. This is an accomplishment since they have had to slowly come from OJT and Diploma. RT, a much smaller profession, pushed for the Associates for about 20 years before they had enough degreed professionals where legislation could introduced to make the degree mandatory. They also came from OJT and certificate as well as meeting resistance since they were allowed to do impressive skills with very little education just like Paramedics. Nursing and RT are at least now trying to put education before skills.

But, what would happen if an EMS employer put "degree preferred" for entry level Paramedic positions? Would there be an outrage? Would Paramedics and unions take to a legal battle since it is not required?
 

TransportJockey

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There's a lot if positions here in nm where it's listed as 'degreed preferred' on all the job ads. Both in and out of hospital.
 

Clipper1

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There's a lot if positions here in nm where it's listed as 'degreed preferred' on all the job ads. Both in and out of hospital.

Do you have some examples of entry level Paramedic positions listing a degree?

Just a quick search came up with these which seem to be fairly notable employers. None mentioned an Associates degree.

https://rn21.ultipro.com/AIR1006/JobBoard/JobDetails.aspx?__ID=*70D64220BE58BE7D

Flight Paramedic; Air Methods
Education: High School Diploma

Gila Hospital Silver Cityhttp://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH07/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=GRMC&cws=1&rid=1476&source=Indeed.com
Qualifications required:
Must have a Current license as an New Mexico EMT-Paramedic
Current Basic Life Support (BLS) card
Current PALS Certification
Current ACLS Certification
Valid New Mexico Drivers License at class “D”, or above

University of New Mexico
https://hospitals.health.unm.edu/in...fuseaction=posting_detail&posting_id=12258109

http://www.miracleworkers.com/jobs/...iteid=indeedppcmw&job_did=j3g7fx6z45x3tfry434
Education Requirements:
High School Diploma or GED equivalent

G4i
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH18/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=G4I&cws=1&rid=587&source=Indeed
Education: Graduation from an accredited EMT-paramedic (EMT-P) certification program.

Presbyterian
https://careers.peopleclick.com/car...ource=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE

https://careers.peopleclick.com/car...ource=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE

https://careers.peopleclick.com/car...ource=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE

High school or equivalent plus trade or vocational school in medical / surgical patient care. NM Paramedic license is required. ***Cardiac Telemetry experience is preferred. Experience in cardiac monitoring is preferred,

Corrections

http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH10/ats/ca...g=CORRECTIONCARE&cws=1&rid=2214&source=indeed
 

TransportJockey

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Do you have some examples of entry level Paramedic positions listing a degree?

Just a quick search came up with these which seem to be fairly notable employers. None mentioned an Associates degree.

https://rn21.ultipro.com/AIR1006/JobBoard/JobDetails.aspx?__ID=*70D64220BE58BE7D

Flight Paramedic; Air Methods
Education: High School Diploma

Gila Hospital Silver Cityhttp://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH07/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=GRMC&cws=1&rid=1476&source=Indeed.com
Qualifications required:
Must have a Current license as an New Mexico EMT-Paramedic
Current Basic Life Support (BLS) card
Current PALS Certification
Current ACLS Certification
Valid New Mexico Drivers License at class “D”, or above

University of New Mexico
https://hospitals.health.unm.edu/in...fuseaction=posting_detail&posting_id=12258109

http://www.miracleworkers.com/jobs/...iteid=indeedppcmw&job_did=j3g7fx6z45x3tfry434
Education Requirements:
High School Diploma or GED equivalent

G4i
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH18/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=G4I&cws=1&rid=587&source=Indeed
Education: Graduation from an accredited EMT-paramedic (EMT-P) certification program.

Presbyterian
https://careers.peopleclick.com/car...ource=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE

https://careers.peopleclick.com/car...ource=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE

https://careers.peopleclick.com/car...ource=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE

High school or equivalent plus trade or vocational school in medical / surgical patient care. NM Paramedic license is required. ***Cardiac Telemetry experience is preferred. Experience in cardiac monitoring is preferred,

Corrections

http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH10/ats/ca...g=CORRECTIONCARE&cws=1&rid=2214&source=indeed

AMR lists advanced education preferred


http://phiairmedical.hirecentric.com/jobs/56360.html
PHI states BS in a healthcare field preferred

The older UNM Lifeguard and UNM ER Paramedic jobs both listed degree preferred, but I am on a work computer and don't have a cache of those pages.

AAS USED to list it. But it's been a while since I looked at those.
http://jemezpueblo.org/emt-paramedic-1.aspx
Pueblo of Jemez lists post secondary education preferred


Those are the ones I can find that are hiring
 
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Clipper1

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AMR lists advanced education preferred


http://phiairmedical.hirecentric.com/jobs/56360.html
PHI states BS in a healthcare field preferred

.

That could lead to a whole new discussion about the requirements to be a Critical Care Paramedic or Flight Paramedic. On the other hand some Flight Paramedics complain about not be equal to the Flight RNs so now they have to have the same education requirements for this employer.

The older UNM Lifeguard and UNM ER Paramedic jobs both listed degree preferred, but I am on a work computer and don't have a cache of those pages.

AAS USED to list it. But it's been a while since I looked at those.

None of the new ads mention a degree. The GED, HS Diploma and tech school requirements are now listed in all their Paramedic positions on the websites. Maybe some raised a stink about the degree requirement. This is what my earlier questions were leading to about the reaction of the EMS community
 

TransportJockey

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None of the new ads mention a degree. The GED, HS Diploma and tech school requirements are now listed in all their Paramedic positions on the websites. Maybe some raised a stink about the degree requirement. This is what my earlier questions were leading to about the reaction of the EMS community

One thing to keep in mind with the UNM position, it's a transfer paramedic position, not ER or flight. I believe thosep ositions generally had a higher requirement. But now that you mention it, I'm gonna start asking around.
 

Clipper1

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One thing to keep in mind with the UNM position, it's a transfer paramedic position, not ER or flight. I believe thosep ositions generally had a higher requirement. But now that you mention it, I'm gonna start asking around.

Transfer Paramedic?

Job description from that link.

•ALS - Provide advanced life support to include oral/nasal endotracheal intubation, needle thoracostomy, needle/surgical cricothyroidotomy, introsseous catheter insertion, pericardiocentesis; perform 12-lead EKG's and chemical blood glucose tests

I was not referring to Flight Paramedics for a degree requirement. I said "entry". What if AMR, RM and some of the others "preferred" a degree?
Even the program at Harborview in Seattle is not an Associates. EMS has to start someplace to get people's attention.
 
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TransportJockey

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Transfer Paramedic?

Job description from that link.



QUOTE]

The main search page
12258109 PARAMEDIC ER Transport 11/23/2013 Rotating 36
They transfer from Sandoval Regional to UNM main, or from UNM Main to SRMC. They don't do 911 and rarely work inside the hospital.
 

TransportJockey

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Like CCT?

On a rare occasion it seems. Primarily just standard inpatient going from one hospital to the other due to bed shortage or a certain surgeon being at one facility or the other. I've done a few for UNM when their transport unit was out and it was stuff like someone being transferred for an appendectomy or for iv antibiotics admission for an infection. Nothing more than an antibiotic drip and some narcotics during transport. That's the typical transport for them. There's rumors of that changing soon, but nothing set in stone. Talking about combining it to an extent with UNM Lifeguard flight teams.
 

ALS5

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This would be a great idea if there were ways to get degrees in the US without going through the for-profit education industry. It is a terrible condition our country is in where education requires thousands of dollars at least, often tens of thousands, for even 2 or 4 year degrees. Requiring someone to get a degree is a fruitless act that does little but benefit the for-profit education system.

What would be the benefit? It would prove that someone has a creditable, good education that meets relevant standards? That's the entire point of the NREMT in the first place, and requiring a degree won't help anything there.

Edit: I see on page 2 you're comparing to other countries. Other countries have significantly different education systems. Australia literally has the best (tied with Denmark and Finland) education system per Education Index in the entire world. Tertiary education (college and technical trade) is funded by tax dollars. The average total cost of a degree in Australia is less than $8000.

They also use a UK-derived model. There are physicians in Australia with bachelor's degrees.

Simply adopting a degree requirement because another country has done is utterly unreasonable when our education system is so utterly broken by comparison. There is no way to implement a "have a degree or else" requirement, at least not at the BLS level. At the ALS level, many medic programs already are part of an associates program or higher, and there is enough content in a medic class to call it a degree in itself, but putting that in the hands of for-profit universities only is a sure way to guarantee the costs go up, making the degree ultimately less viable as the earning potential relative to the cost to get the degree goes down.

One thing the US definitely does not need more of is young working people saddled with virtually unlimited debt that will follow them to their graves.

Wayfaring man,

I respectfully disagree with you, I believe we need a mandated degree in pre-hospital medicine if we are going to consider this field a career, other wise we are always going to be bottom feeders always accepting whatever we can get. We practice pre-hospital emergency medicine, if we stay where we are now, then why expect people to get a doctorate in medicine in order to practice medicine, why not just let them go through a 1-2 yr MD program and then let them practice? What’s the difference?...... I think we need to keep ourselves at a higher standard, look at Nurses, they can’t practice autonomously like we can but they are now required to have a bachelor’s degree, WHY? They need an MD to tell them what to do, you can teach a monkey to do follow directions.
 

akflightmedic

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Yeh! Getting a degree might help with research, grammar, syntax, etc...!!

FYI...Wayfaring hasn't been seen since October 2014 and you revived a post from 2013 without adding any real new support to the overall topic.
 

DrParasite

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why not just let them go through a 1-2 yr MD program and then let them practice? What’s the difference?
When I was looking at becoming a Physicians assistant, I looked at several programs. I found there were a few AAS programs (but very few), some BS programs (which was what I was initially looking at), and a whole lot of MS programs. At the end of each program, you were eligible to take the PA-C exam, and if you passed, you were a certified as a physicians assistant. Regardless of the time spend in education, you were still evaluated using the same test.

So going back to the quoted question: should we let someone go through a 1-2 year MD program and let them practice? They have the knowledge required to pass the "entry level" exam, which was the standard to judge if you have the minimum knowledge to be a doctor. well, if they can pass the medical licensing exam, and the appropriate board specialty exam, does it really matter how long their MD program was?
 

joshrunkle35

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So going back to the quoted question: should we let someone go through a 1-2 year MD program and let them practice? They have the knowledge required to pass the "entry level" exam, which was the standard to judge if you have the minimum knowledge to be a doctor. well, if they can pass the medical licensing exam, and the appropriate board specialty exam, does it really matter how long their MD program was?

Yes. For several reasons:
-They need to work regularly with other professionals like social workers, psychologists, public health professionals, etc., and almost all of those people hold advanced degrees. They need to have a large amount of time learning in order to be respected by colleagues in similar professions, so that patient care is not harmed by a broken professional relationship.
-They need to be respected by the general populace. Would you respect a doctor’s opinion if they had 1-2 years of schooling but you had 12?
-They can’t learn the information in 2 years. Pre-med education is only 10-12 classes, but each of those classes might have significant prerequisites unless the student goes though a college prep high school. That information would all need to be learned to form a basis for the information learned in medical school. Even if a person studied 24 hrs a day for 2 years, I don’t know that they could absorb all of the information from a post-high school education to the current standard of medical education.
-Lastly: do you respect or trust a Paramedic any more if they currently hold advanced training/licensure/degrees? I sure do!
 

EpiEMS

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Regardless of the time spend in education, you were still evaluated using the same test.

Competency-based education is the next great step in education.
 

Summit

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Associates Degree PAs do not have only 1-2 years of post-HS education.

They are typically 2-3 year programs with 1-2 years of prereqs at mininum.
 

DrParasite

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Competency-based education is the next great step in education.
So, you agree with what I said? And if not, how do you propose that competency be evaluated?
They need to work regularly with other professionals like social workers, psychologists, public health professionals, etc., and almost all of those people hold advanced degrees. They need to have a large amount of time learning in order to be respected by colleagues in similar professions, so that patient care is not harmed by a broken professional relationship.
Oh, I get it..... the knowledge isn't important, it's only how long they were in school for...... and the longer someone is in school, the smarter they must be.... no one would ever respect a smart person who knew what they were talking about if they didn't hold an advance degree.
-They need to be respected by the general populace. Would you respect a doctor’s opinion if they had 1-2 years of schooling but you had 12?
I can honestly say that I have never asked my doctor how long they went to school for (or where they went to school for that matter, because some schools are better than others). They had MD after their name, which means they deserved my respect because they were qualified as medical doctors. Whether it took them 2 years, 4 year or 6 years, they still passed the requirements to be an MD
-They can’t learn the information in 2 years. Pre-med education is only 10-12 classes, but each of those classes might have significant prerequisites unless the student goes though a college prep high school. That information would all need to be learned to form a basis for the information learned in medical school. Even if a person studied 24 hrs a day for 2 years, I don’t know that they could absorb all of the information from a post-high school education to the current standard of medical education.
what are you basing that on? are you allowing your own biases cloud your opinion of what a person is capable of? I mean, you know the youngest medical doctor in the US graduated medical school at 17, right? and there are others who completed all that schooling in less time than you or I would need.QUOTE="joshrunkle35, post: 664115, member: 13783"]-Lastly: do you respect or trust a Paramedic any more if they currently hold advanced training/licensure/degrees? I sure do![/QUOTE]honestly? no. I have know quite a few arrogant paramedics who have bachelors in paramedicine, and they perform no better than the non-degree ones. I know of a paramedic who has a PhD (albeit in an unrelated field), but shes the same as every paramedic at the agency.

I know of a FF/PM who currently has her masters degree, but on the truck, she is treated the same as every other paramedic (although she is also the department chair of a university's pre hospital medicine program, but that's not her clinical job).

And just for the record, I know of many nurses who have associates degrees who don't think having a bachelors makes nurses anything special, and they are damn good nurses. The only reason they got it was because their employer was pushing for all nurses to have them.
Associates Degree PAs do not have only 1-2 years of post-HS education.

They are typically 2-3 year programs with 1-2 years of prereqs at mininum.
I didn't say otherwise, and almost all PA programs have prerequisite classes, but the program is still an associate degree in length. Don't believe me? check out .http://www.mdc.edu/physicianassistantas/ (although I will stipulate that it is being rolled into a bachelors degree at a future date).

and even so, it doesn't matter: at the end the program, regardless of if you took a AAS program, BS program, or MS program, you still sit for the same PA-C exam.
 

EpiEMS

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So, you agree with what I said? And if not, how do you propose that competency be evaluated?

I totally agree - competency is the next frontier, meaning that fixed length programs are (hopefully) going to start being the exception, rather than the rule. Not only is it cheaper, it's more efficient. For example, if I can demonstrate my skill/knowledge (like via exam) in some subset of X as part of my degree (or license) in X, I should be able to skip that portion.

One thing that is inherently valuable about a degree, though, is that it takes time. I'd argue that part of the reason why extensive schooling for physicians is valuable is that (1) it selects for people with patients and (2) it produces its end output at age 30...that's (on average) a more mature person with (usually) more experience. That's a good thing, in general.
 

Summit

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And just for the record, I know of many nurses who have associates degrees who don't think having a bachelors makes nurses anything special, and they are damn good nurses. The only reason they got it was because their employer was pushing for all nurses to have them.
I didn't say otherwise, and almost all PA programs have prerequisite classes, but the program is still an associate degree in length. Don't believe me? check out .http://www.mdc.edu/physicianassistantas/ (although I will stipulate that it is being rolled into a bachelors degree at a future date).

and even so, it doesn't matter: at the end the program, regardless of if you took a AAS program, BS program, or MS program, you still sit for the same PA-C exam.
You are saying that a MD is 12 years vs "1-2" for a PA AAS you are failing in your comparison.

12 years MD:
4 years of undergrad
4 years of medical school
4 years of residency

9 years to MD:
2 years of undergrad (some schools don't technically require a 4 year degree, just the prereqs which account for only about 2 years, and there are some accelerated direct entry 6 year BS/MD programs)
4 years of med school
3 years of residency (EM, IM, FP, Peds... or in some areas have limited or supervised GP practice without a residency (function like a PA))

3+ year PA AAS: (per MDC website you linked to)
1+ years of prereqs
2 years of PA school

So you can get an PA AAS in a minimum of 3 years (but usually it is 9+ with experience)
Or you could get an MD in a minimum of 9 years (but usually it is 12+)
You could also get a NP MSN in a minimum of 6 years (but usually it is 9+ with experience)

But all of those numbers are atypically low kind of like how you can get your paramedic in 3 months. The market seems to want more rigor (eg most new grad RNs have a BSN even though you don't technically need a degree to get your RN).

PA MS usually it is 9+ with experience
MD usually it is 12+
NP MSN usually it is 9+ with experience
 
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