What would happen if the NREMT required a degree?

[Wayfaring Man]

This would be a great idea if there were ways to get degrees in the US without going through the for-profit education industry. It is a terrible condition our country is in where education requires thousands of dollars at least, often tens of thousands, for even 2 or 4 year degrees. Requiring someone to get a degree is a fruitless act that does little but benefit the for-profit education system.

What would be the benefit? It would prove that someone has a creditable, good education that meets relevant standards? That's the entire point of the NREMT in the first place, and requiring a degree won't help anything there.

Edit: I see on page 2 you're comparing to other countries. Other countries have significantly different education systems. Australia literally has the best (tied with Denmark and Finland) education system per Education Index in the entire world. Tertiary education (college and technical trade) is funded by tax dollars. The average total cost of a degree in Australia is less than $8000.

They also use a UK-derived model. There are physicians in Australia with bachelor's degrees.

Simply adopting a degree requirement because another country has done is utterly unreasonable when our education system is so utterly broken by comparison. There is no way to implement a "have a degree or else" requirement, at least not at the BLS level. At the ALS level, many medic programs already are part of an associates program or higher, and there is enough content in a medic class to call it a degree in itself, but putting that in the hands of for-profit universities only is a sure way to guarantee the costs go up, making the degree ultimately less viable as the earning potential relative to the cost to get the degree goes down.

One thing the US definitely does not need more of is young working people saddled with virtually unlimited debt that will follow them to their graves.

 

[CriticalCareIFT]

Well, if I understand correctly, nurses were grandfathered in. Additionally, consider that a person that has worked in EMS since 1990 knows a lot more than when they went to school. If I understand correctly (because I was not a paramedic then), things like C-PAP, various splinting devices, fibrinolytics and today's pre-hospital cardiology and treatment is different. Advances in medicine mean a lot more information. The person without a degree has most likely continued learning over time and has amassed much more information than a bachelor's-level degree.

On the job experience and CME are not the same as formal college education. I believe one needs both to be a well rounded provider. Formal college education does not just offer insight into new topics, or material but to obtain a degree to a bachelors level in senior college shows that you learned certain life skills like time management, proper discourse, certain level of maturity, time management, reading and writing ability above GED/High school level and you have read literature that is written for adults.

Spend sometime with college grads and then spend some time with non college grads (AKA EMS) and observe how the conversations/aspirations differ. Working EMS and meeting people who hold degrees is not the norm, although outliers do exist.

My point being still in 2013 a guy with no college degree and a medic card with 7 years on the job will be much more sough after than a guy with a bachelors degree and 3 years on the job. This is why the top tier people who are smart and ambitious leave EMS because of frustration, and in 10 years from that day the medic without a degree will still be a medic, and medic with a degree will be PA, MD, DO etc.

 

[triemal04]

This would be a great idea if there were ways to get degrees in the US without going through the for-profit education industry. It is a terrible condition our country is in where education requires thousands of dollars at least, often tens of thousands, for even 2 or 4 year degrees. Requiring someone to get a degree is a fruitless act that does little but benefit the for-profit education system.
Your personal view of the educational system has no bearing on whether or not more education is needed, nor if a degree should be used to highlight that level of learning.

What would be the benefit? It would prove that someone has a creditable, good education that meets relevant standards? That's the entire point of the NREMT in the first place, and requiring a degree won't help anything there.
The NREMT is not a national standard. It is not required, the requirements to be eligible to test are extraordinary low, and to someone looking in from the outside it is very difficult to see why it matters at all, or what it even means someone has accomplished. For the level of care that paramedics provide and should provide, there is no other healthcare profession that uses a technical certification alone.

Edit: I see on page 2 you're comparing to other countries. Other countries have significantly different education systems. Australia literally has the best (tied with Denmark and Finland) education system per Education Index in the entire world. Tertiary education (college and technical trade) is funded by tax dollars. The average total cost of a degree in Australia is less than $8000.
This has no bearing on requiring degrees for EMS. If you have a problem with the US educational system that is your own issue.

They also use a UK-derived model. There are physicians in Australia with bachelor's degrees.
Again, no bearing here. Medical schools in many western countries run somewhat differently than US schools for many reasons, none of which matter in the least in this topic.

Simply adopting a degree requirement because another country has done is utterly unreasonable when our education system is so utterly broken by comparison. There is no way to implement a "have a degree or else" requirement, at least not at the BLS level. At the ALS level, many medic programs already are part of an associates program or higher, and there is enough content in a medic class to call it a degree in itself, but putting that in the hands of for-profit universities only is a sure way to guarantee the costs go up, making the degree ultimately less viable as the earning potential relative to the cost to get the degree goes down.
This has nothing to do with what another country does. The amount of education that is really needed to be providing the treatements that are routinely done and assessing the patients at a level that can determine if those treatements are needed is much higher than what is currently required. Our education needs to be increased for that simple fact alone.

If a true national standard of education for EMS providers was ever implemented, it would be very easy to enforce for all levels. Quite simply: You do it, or you don't get certified. And if you aren't certified you cannot bill a patient's insurance or medicare as a EMS provider. Simple really.

One thing the US definitely does not need more of is young working people saddled with virtually unlimited debt that will follow them to their graves.

You need to drop you bias and start to understand the profession you've gotten yourself into.

 

[NBFFD2433]

A degree for Paramedic I can see arguments for, but for EMT it would be the death of EMS

LOL! I agree. I am not old enough for college.

 

[TransportJockey]

LOL! I agree. I am not old enough for college.

No offense, but the fact we let, in some areas, people that are under 18 do EMS does not do us any favors. Same with others treating this job as a hobby. It's no wonder EMS is not a career

 

[EpiEMS]

No offense, but the fact we let, in some areas, people that are under 18 do EMS does not do us any favors. Same with others treating this job as a hobby. It's no wonder EMS is not a career

Counterargument: fire departments have explorers, as do police departments. The problem, you could say, is when under-18s are substituting for paid workers.

 

[TransportJockey]

Counterargument: fire departments have explorers, as do police departments. The problem, you could say, is when under-18s are substituting for paid workers.

You do bring up a point... But that's if you want EMS to stay under a public safety umbrella where we are the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: stepchildren. With the recent pushes towards community health and advanced practice paramedics (with laughably inadequate education), we should be pushing to fall more into the healthcare arena... And where in healthcare do you see under age RNs or PAs or MDs? Or even CNAs for that matter?

 

[CFal]

When I was in highschool I knew kids that volunteered in hospitals, but besides that point I think EMS should fall under public safety.

 

[TransportJockey]

When I was in highschool I knew kids that volunteered in hospitals, but besides that point I think EMS should fall under public safety.

Really? Out here they have to be 18 at least to volunteer in a hospital. Which I suppose would let some seniors in HS do it... but not a 16 year old Sophomore. And why do you believe we should fall under public safety? I'm just curious.. .but then again I hate EMS falling under the FD umbrella anyways.

 

[Rialaigh]

Really? Out here they have to be 18 at least to volunteer in a hospital. Which I suppose would let some seniors in HS do it... but not a 16 year old Sophomore. And why do you believe we should fall under public safety? I'm just curious.. .but then again I hate EMS falling under the FD umbrella anyways.

Im going to jump in here.

Because the purpose of EMS is to provide emergency, life saving, immediately benefiting care to those that NEED it. EMS was not created or intended to ever do any type of community medicine. It was not intended for non emergencies. If EMS is to adapt the the levels that some of you want it to then it will no longer be EMS in any manner of the form. It will simply be "MHS" or mobile healthcare service.

And mobile healthcare services are very different animals from EMS and cannot be treated as EMS at all.

 

[CFal]

Im going to jump in here.

Because the purpose of EMS is to provide emergency, life saving, immediately benefiting care to those that NEED it. EMS was not created or intended to ever do any type of community medicine. It was not intended for non emergencies. If EMS is to adapt the the levels that some of you want it to then it will no longer be EMS in any manner of the form. It will simply be "MHS" or mobile healthcare service.

And mobile healthcare services are very different animals from EMS and cannot be treated as EMS at all.

 

[CFal]

Really? Out here they have to be 18 at least to volunteer in a hospital. Which I suppose would let some seniors in HS do it... but not a 16 year old Sophomore. And why do you believe we should fall under public safety? I'm just curious.. .but then again I hate EMS falling under the FD umbrella anyways.

Ideally it should be 3rd service, but in some places it makes more sense to have it fire based.

 

[MrJones]

Ideally it should be 3rd service, but in some places it makes more sense to have it fire based.

In what places and in what ways?

 

[Rialaigh]

In what places and in what ways?

Again if I may jump in here. It makes way more sense to have EMS be fire based in most areas, or at least working in conjunction with the fire department or contracted by the fire department. Instead of having guys sitting in rigs on street corners you could have EMS crews enjoying the comforts of fire stations and the company of other people during shift. It makes way more sense to build one station to house both instead of two stations to house them seperately, or having the crew sit on street corners. It makes more sense to already have a secured area where you can restock. It makes sense to already have training rooms and areas available to you.

From an efficiency standpoint ($$$) it would make sense for all EMS To be fire based, or at least contracted by the fire department.

If current fire based EMS services would do a study that would show how much time an average EMS crew spent away from the station in a 24 hour period (averaged over months and dozens of stations..etc..) compared with how much time the average fire crew spent away from the station in those same periods, and then hired "fire medics" that were solely for the EMS side of things (maybe cross trained in some extrication) and paid them accordingly for their time, then maybe this fire medic thing would work a lot better. You would have designated medical personal that were not there just for the fire side, and you would have them paid accordingly, then shared facilities would become a standard.

 

[Summit]

Im going to jump in here.

Because the purpose of EMS is to provide emergency, life saving, immediately benefiting care to those that NEED it. EMS was not created or intended to ever do any type of community medicine. It was not intended for non emergencies. If EMS is to adapt the the levels that some of you want it to then it will no longer be EMS in any manner of the form. It will simply be "MHS" or mobile healthcare service.

And mobile healthcare services are very different animals from EMS and cannot be treated as EMS at all.

At that point, you may as well make it a nursing specialty.

 

[Carlos Danger]

At that point, you may as well make it a nursing specialty.

You better run for cover.....h34r:

I'm not touching this one after the RN-to-Paramedic thread, lol.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Might as well eliminate every kind of healthcare occupation and make it some kind of nursing specialty or have it fall under nursing in some kind of way. Or at least that is what some nurses seem to think that post on this forum. Apparently this trusty holistic sidekick of the doctor complements all realms of healthcare.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I feel a storm front with a high probability of **** storm.... in the upcoming forecast

 

[TransportJockey]

Im going to jump in here.

Because the purpose of EMS is to provide emergency, life saving, immediately benefiting care to those that NEED it. EMS was not created or intended to ever do any type of community medicine. It was not intended for non emergencies. If EMS is to adapt the the levels that some of you want it to then it will no longer be EMS in any manner of the form. It will simply be "MHS" or mobile healthcare service.

And mobile healthcare services are very different animals from EMS and cannot be treated as EMS at all.

Umm... How much of your call volume matches up with they bolded statement? We do more social working and non emergency stuff than emergent critical treatments.

 

[Summit]

I knew my buddy would come and play. :rofl:

I'm just saying, if you want EMS providers to suddenly be a super combination of a Flight RN and a CH RN, don't you want an RN? That is what some countries do!

Rialaigh has a point: EMS can focus on being emergency care professionals.