The Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act

[46Young]

The Public Safety Empoyer-Employee Cooperation Act - H.R. 413 would require all state and local governments to engage in collective bargaining with their police, fire, and EMS personnel. This will also bar employees from volunteering at other depts that also have union members from a different local.

This has already passed in the House and should be voted on by the Senate by the end of this month.

I'd like to hear the forum member's opinions for or against this.

 

[JPINFV]

What if the employees don't want a union?

Who picks the union? Are we going to have more KC MAST scams pulled by the IAFF?

Can individual employees still opt out of a union in right to work states?

 

[ffemt8978]

Here's a link to the complete text of the bill

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-413

It will be interesting to see how Sec. 8.b comes into play if this is passed into law.

(b) Partial Exemption- A State may exempt from its State law, or from the requirements established under this Act, a political subdivision of the State that has a population of less than 5,000 or that employs fewer than 25 full time employees. For purposes of this subsection, the term ‘employees’ includes each individual employed by the political subdivision except any individual elected by popular vote or appointed to serve on a board or commission.

So that would mean that a lot of small departments and agencies could be exempted from this law.

 

[DrParasite]

While I think it's a good law, I can see AMR, Rural/Metro, and every other large private company fighting against it. You will find their costs rising, which cuts into their budgets, which results in lower profit levels, which no private company wants.

It will benefit the employee, but I think it will cause budgets to rise, which will raise costs for those who have to pay their salaries, and those who fund those budgets.

 

[reaper]

I believe this is for government employees only. State, county, or city. Privates would not be covered under it.

This is just another big lobbying push, by the unions. They see their need falling to the way side and are grabbing at any straw they can to stay alive!

 

[Sparky79]

While I think it's a good law, I can see AMR, Rural/Metro, and every other large private company fighting against it. You will find their costs rising, which cuts into their budgets, which results in lower profit levels, which no private company wants.

It will benefit the employee, but I think it will cause budgets to rise, which will raise costs for those who have to pay their salaries, and those who fund those budgets.

The way I read it, private companies would not be affected. The law is for municipal police, fire and ems only.

The Public Safety Empoyer-Employee Cooperation Act - H.R. 413 would require all state and local governments to engage in collective bargaining with their police, fire, and EMS personnel.

FWIW, this country needs less union involvement, not more. Unions when they were created served a purpose. They fought for employee safety, and fair working conditions, overtime pay, etc.. They are no longer needed today. We now have OSHA, and labor laws to protect employees. Today unions are all about greed and money. The union entitlement mentality is what has destroyed this country. Auto workers making $75.00 an hour to watch a robot assemble a vehicle, construction workers making prevailing wage to do the same job that others do for half the price (my full time job is a non-union electrician), and now there is another thread going on this site where a new EMT thinks that a union should be able to get them $25 an hour for their advanced medical knowledge (110 hours of first aid training). There are thousands of people willing to do this job for free, you're lucky to even have a job making $10 an hour!

In my area teachers unions, fire and police have all made big issues about wage increases, health insurance contributions, and other contract issues. It seems that they feel they are immune to the economy. Meanwhile, average citizens have gone without raises (I haven't received a raise in over 2 years), have dealt with insurance premium increases, furlows, and other benefit concessions.

Unions are out of touch with reality. They want more, more, more. Unfortunately they don't realise there isn't any more money available to give. Wages are (or should be) set by the free market. People are only worth what the market says, supply and demand. Union strong arm tactics cannot change this basic principle, although they try.

Less entitlement. More hard work, earn your paycheck, live in reality, and this country would be better off.

/rant

 

[looker]

Just read it and pretty sure that private company are not covered. I personally refuse to hire anyone that is union as they cost much more compare to non-union workers.

 

[46Young]

What if the employees don't want a union?

Who picks the union? Are we going to have more KC MAST scams pulled by the IAFF?

Can individual employees still opt out of a union in right to work states?

I'm not sure what happens if employees don't want a union. My impression is that if the employees want the right to organize and pursue collective bargaining, the employer must allow this. If no employees want to organize, then there would be no union. It just gives labor the right to organize if they so choose.

I wouldn't say that MAST scams will be more likely. Labor can form their own union, or attatch to an established one. This act wlll apply to municipal agencies only. Members can't volunteer where other locals exist.

My understanding is that employees can opt out of the union in right to work states, but instead of union dues, they will still see a payroll deduction. It will be called an administrative fee for administration of the contract. The bulk of the money a union spends typically falls into this category. I haven't confirmed the payroll deduction, it's just what I've heard.

 

[46Young]

The way I read it, private companies would not be affected. The law is for municipal police, fire and ems only.




FWIW, this country needs less union involvement, not more. Unions when they were created served a purpose. They fought for employee safety, and fair working conditions, overtime pay, etc.. They are no longer needed today. We now have OSHA, and labor laws to protect employees. Today unions are all about greed and money. The union entitlement mentality is what has destroyed this country. Auto workers making $75.00 an hour to watch a robot assemble a vehicle, construction workers making prevailing wage to do the same job that others do for half the price (my full time job is a non-union electrician), and now there is another thread going on this site where a new EMT thinks that a union should be able to get them $25 an hour for their advanced medical knowledge (110 hours of first aid training). There are thousands of people willing to do this job for free, you're lucky to even have a job making $10 an hour!

In my area teachers unions, fire and police have all made big issues about wage increases, health insurance contributions, and other contract issues. It seems that they feel they are immune to the economy. Meanwhile, average citizens have gone without raises (I haven't received a raise in over 2 years), have dealt with insurance premium increases, furlows, and other benefit concessions.

Unions are out of touch with reality. They want more, more, more. Unfortunately they don't realise there isn't any more money available to give. Wages are (or should be) set by the free market. People are only worth what the market says, supply and demand. Union strong arm tactics cannot change this basic principle, although they try.

Less entitlement. More hard work, earn your paycheck, live in reality, and this country would be better off.

/rant

The Bill is about allowing a group of employees (aka bargaining unit) to have the ability to sit down with their employer and discuss their working conditions and collectively make decisions regarding them. It's called Collective Bargaining for a reason! Is that really such a bad thing?

My union is concerned about adequate fire protection as well as adequate EMS services. They are also concerned about jobs, membership, and money. These are not mutually exclusive.

During this recession, there have been numerous fire unions that have agreed to reopen contracts and renegotiate to ease their employer's financial burden. Many forget that it's unlawful for public safety unions to strike. The bill will mandate collective bargaining, with arbitration being done by a third party. How would strong arm tactics come into play with public safety unions? If these unions refuse to give back in times of economic crisis, there will simply be a reduction in force.

I know more than a few people in the business world that were let go for someone half the cost and/or half their age. I've seen this in several EMS agencies I've worked for. Regarding seniority, I think job security is a wonderful thing. I'd hate to invest my life in a career for twenty years, be let go, and have to start over at 50.

I endorse the merit based promotional process. This eliminates nepotism and other forms of favoritism. Favoritism in any form is a pet peeve of mine. Progressive discipline is a good thing as well. Same offense, same result. These policies ensure that everyone receives the same treatment, and cannot be singled out if they're disliked by an individual.

When I worked at my old hospital, they would change our schedules every year or so. They implemented SSM for IFT. Promotions were based on favoritism. If they didn't like you, they could rearrange your schedule to be incompatible with your personal life, school, child care, etc. In Charleston, they mandated copious forced OT for 12-24 hours, changed our schedules every six months, made us go available upon arrival at the ED, mandated us to be on call twice monthly for 12 hour blocks with no additional compensation or stipend, we needed to have someone agree to work our shift, or we would be denied paid time off, favoritism in promotion and discipline, among other things. It would be a great thing to be able to negotiate these issues instead of complying with whatever management wants to do, without recourse.

 

[46Young]

That business with the FF/medic making that inappropriate xtranormal video about him and a local ER doc, and later getting fired, caused me to look up Colleton County SC's disciplinary policy. Focus your attention to 15.1B. I've seen favoritism in many forms, and I've seen some get suspensions or terminations where others get a slap on the wrist or less for the same offense, but I've never acutally seen it as actual policy!

It basically says that they can discipline two different individuals differently for the same offense. This actually endorses favoritism. I was appaled when I saw this. Things like this need to be rewritten. Hard to do if you're going it alone. Easier to do if you have collective bargaining.

http://wcsc.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/pdf/discipline.pdf

 

[JPINFV]

Sure, I agree that two identical infractions that are entirely the same, the same punishment should be handed out. However, there is no such thing as two identical situations. To require the exact same punishment for the same offense ignores the severity of the same offense and the past history of said individual. To require the exact same punishment for the exact same offense is how we get the idiocy of of zero tolerance policies that result in kindergartners being suspended or expelled because they brought a lego gun to school. Managers should be expected to think past a hard wired, binary punishment protocol.

To a similar point, why even have sentencing guidelines in the justice system. That BART officer in Oakland, CA who was convicted last week of involuntary manslaughter took a life. Let's execute him since the only thing that matters is the fact that he took a life under a 'zero tolerance, totality of the facts of a case be damned' setup. After all, is there a difference between premeditated murder and involuntary manslaughter since the end result is the same?

The concept that every individual is the same is the reason why hard workers hate unions. Unions only serve to protect slugs.

 

[grich242]

well stated 46, it works well here in MI. and the burning question for all the union haters have you ever been involved in a good one? AS far as auto workers making $75 an hour where and what plant? do you know any? Those wages are combined with healthcare retirement payroll tax etc..as for osha to provide your safety the government agency responsible for oversight and inspection of oil rigs has done well so far....COLLECTIVE BARGAINING IS BASED ON THE EMPLOYERS ABILITY TO PAY. no municipality should be crippled by any contract as they can be changed. heres an example of what this kind of bill prevents. a local politician decides he can cut money from the budget by lowering the daily staffing (minimum number on duty.)taking a few responding units out of service your mom/kid/wife/whatever has an emergency like anaphalatic reaction now the response time to your house just doubbled it takes 7 to 8 minutes when the closest station is 4 blocks away and why you ask? so they can use the money to repaint the parking meters around town..under the contract the city/county whomever has to honor the staffing minimum. proposals like this are more common than u think

 

[JPINFV]

well stated 46, it works well here in MI. and the burning question for all the union haters have you ever been involved in a good one?

Never been in a union. Never felt slighted for it. However all I've seen unions do is screw over people with workplace action. Ask any of the grocery store workers in Southern California how their strikes in the mid-2000's went. Of course, I'm also not a slug who requires mommy and daddy union to protect me. I do my work. I do it well. I get rewarded for it. That's something the union slugs don't understand, that merit is more important than time.

 

[grich242]

ok except we are not grocery store clerks and are not allowed to strike, you make the same old argument any union is only as good as the members and their involvement in it, the "union leaders" are elected but this is the u.s. we'll just sit on the sidelines and whine about everything and not lift a finger to change it..

 

[rescue99]

ok except we are not grocery store clerks and are not allowed to strike, you make the same old argument any union is only as good as the members and their involvement in it, the "union leaders" are elected but this is the u.s. we'll just sit on the sidelines and whine about everything and not lift a finger to change it..

True...this is a huge problem. Always expecting someone else to make it happen.

 

[JPINFV]

Are you trying to claim that unions are the only way to get things to change?

 

[grich242]

not at all but this bill is a very important issue. and to be dismissed because some who has never seen proposals like the one I just gave who has never been involved in the process but has seen them before and its not good is an opnion based on what? grocery store clerks?it is illegal for police and fire to strike, and in some states there is no way to force the city to meet the contract THEY AGREED to and in most cases offered.and yes there are slugs in any line of work both union and non union.

 

[ffemt8978]

How is this an important issue? A large percentage of political subdivisions already have collective bargaining agreements. What is to be gained by making even more of them?

I'm just not sure that something like this should be mandated by the federal government.

 

[46Young]

Sure, I agree that two identical infractions that are entirely the same, the same punishment should be handed out. However, there is no such thing as two identical situations. To require the exact same punishment for the same offense ignores the severity of the same offense and the past history of said individual. To require the exact same punishment for the exact same offense is how we get the idiocy of of zero tolerance policies that result in kindergartners being suspended or expelled because they brought a lego gun to school. Managers should be expected to think past a hard wired, binary punishment protocol.

To a similar point, why even have sentencing guidelines in the justice system. That BART officer in Oakland, CA who was convicted last week of involuntary manslaughter took a life. Let's execute him since the only thing that matters is the fact that he took a life under a 'zero tolerance, totality of the facts of a case be damned' setup. After all, is there a difference between premeditated murder and involuntary manslaughter since the end result is the same?

The concept that every individual is the same is the reason why hard workers hate unions. Unions only serve to protect slugs.

The employee's past history is exactly why we have progressive discipline. Late once, verbal warning. Twice, written. Third, three days of LWOP. Fourth, termination. Without equal discipline, employee A can be written up for uniform non compliance, and employee B just an informal warning. Employee A leaves the rig dirty and low on fuel, gets one day LWOP. Employee B gets a warning. We all know certain individuals that have gotten on management's bad side, and the supervisors look for anything and everything to write the employee up, to create a paper trail, things they wouldn't bother anyone else for. Progressive discipline ensures that all employees are treated equally, and not by favoritism. If you've messed up twice in the past, the next one's a step three. Of course, some offenses go right to a step two, three, or four.

Regarding hard workers, I've seen many a hard worker get passed over for promotion, or been subject to the wrong end of favoritism, as they weren't in the right click. It must be a horrible feeling to devote many years to a dept, never to be promoted, just because you may have rubbed someone the wrong way, or because you didn't kiss up enough to the right people.

I'll take having to deal with a slug or two if it means I won't have to deal with favoritism, have job security, and will participate in a merit based promotional process, and be assigned a ranking on the list after testing. The grading practices are transparent. You can't just give your brother in law a high score and stick them at number three or four out of 50 to get them the promotion.

 

[46Young]

How is this an important issue? A large percentage of political subdivisions already have collective bargaining agreements. What is to be gained by making even more of them?

I'm just not sure that something like this should be mandated by the federal government.

The Gov't passed the healthcare reform, so it would appear that state's rights are not a consideration based on past practices.