The poor volunteers...

[AJ Hidell]

Once again, are we gonna make this a Volunteer Ambulance discussion (whihc I already said I agree with to a point) or are you gonna continue to include all volunteers in Emergency Services?

Are you in the wrong thread or something? The thread is about volunteer firemen. There is no reason that I should have to specify in each and every post that we are talking about volunteer firemen. Not one person here -- other than you -- has said anything about volunteer SAR, or whatever it is that you're talking about, in this entire thread. So how you imagine that anyone else is talking about that is beyond me.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Are you in the wrong thread or something? The thread is about volunteer firemen. There is no reason that I should have to specify in each and every post that we are talking about volunteer firemen. Not one person here -- other than you -- has said anything about volunteer SAR, or whatever it is that you're talking about, in this entire thread. So how you imagine that anyone else is talking about that is beyond me.

Becasue the jump was already made from Volunteer Firefighters (Medical First Response, not paid ALS Ambulance) to Volunteer Ambulance. TWO SEPERATE THINGS. Instead of focusing hatred for Volunteer Ambulance on Volunteer Ambulance, everyone sees the word VOLUNTEER and automaticly starts bashing volunteers (no distinction was made between VOL. AMB. and VOL. FD or VOL. EMS). EMS refers to the SYSTEM, not the specific way they provide it. It was said (paraphrase), "Yah! Volunteer EMS (NOT AMBULANCE) took a hit." EMS refers to any way emergency medicine is provided (ambulance, hospital, fire, ski patrol, SAR, boat patrol, etc..). you fail to limit your comments to volunteer ambulance, but bash all volunteers in all facets of EMS. So if we are gonna hap-hazardly bash volunteers in the hopes that we hit Volunteer Ambulance, then I consider that an attack on the entire volunteer system. Did you know that in many places Volunteer FD and Resque Squads perform many of the same duties I perform with SAR. So why shouldn't I take offence when someone lumps me (a volunteer in EMS) in your "specific" hatred for VOL. Ambulance.

 

[reaper]

Once again, are we gonna make this a Volunteer Ambulance discussion (which I already said I agree with to a point) or are you gonna continue to include all volunteers in Emergency Services? If it is the latter, then we have problems... by "we" I mean the citizens of America. If my volunteer service is viewed as being so substandard then I will...

Hang up my Swiftwater Gear... That means either no Swiftwater Rescue in the mountain counties or that the our counties FDs (with there 20 paid county FF's) will have to spend 100,000 grand annually to train, certify, equip and maintain enough paid full-time teams to cover the county.

Stop training and certifying in Search Management... I'm sure that the 2 deputies in my county trained in that can handle a search in our 1.2 million acres of national forest.

Stop training my dog in trailing... After all none of those dog that went looking for our fallen brothers at 9/11 were volunteer... oh, wait THEY ALL WERE! Hope my dog never finds out she is a lowly volunteer!

Stop training in High Angle Rope Rescue (VERTICAL)... Wait, that means that no one paid in the county is now equiped, trained, certified, and ready to rescue tourist buses that go over the numerous cliffs in our area or retrive the body of the first female helo firefighter in CalFire History.

Stop leading my team in Medical Training so that we can stay current and ready to help that little girl suffering from hypothermia and near drowning or that climber who broke his leg on a climb.

Ya, my level of dedication and the standards to which I adhear are so low, that I should leave this all to the paid professionals... and then our county can declare chapter 11!

If you have a problem with Volunteer Ambulance, thats fine, I understand and 95% agree with the arguement. But this thread is woven around a news story about Volunteer Firefighters and IS NOT about Volunteer Ambulance... so why do we feel the need to bash all volunteers, whose hearts are often in the right place and are doing what they can in an imperfect system. You don't think that all volunteers would jump at the chance to quit their day job and be paid for there emergency service? So even if you hate the Volunteer Ambulacnee SYSTEM why bash the Volunteers themself, they are just trying to provide the best care they can within the confines of a system that gives them less recognition than paid EMSers do... only they complain less.

Funny, that is all covered by our EMS system and not a volunteer among them! So yes, it can be done!

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Funny, that is all covered by our EMS system and not a volunteer among them! So yes, it can be done!

You have a paid 50 man search team? You Live in a National Park?

You have paid search and disaster dogs? You would be one of like 3 nationwide.

You have a paid Wilderness Medical Team? We are not talking Ski Patrol or a single Helo that can go anywhere, but a team comprised of EMT/OEC, WEMT, Paramedics, and ER MDs, that can get in by any means, to the most remote locations and spend days on end out there? Cool. Paid? Sign me up.

You Swiftwater and Ropes Teams are paid. That I believe as many times Fire takes these areas over. But we are not as blessed to have that as an option. It has been considered and is not possible from a logistical standpoint.

Your EMS System covers Swiftwater, Vertical Ropes, Wilderness Search (ATVs, Snowmobiles, Horses, Dogs, Skiiers, Snowshers, Helos, Hikers, Climbers, etc...)? It must be nice to practice Emergency Services in a glass tower deep in the heart of Urbania, 90210. My county is barely keeping the few current county employees paid, how do you propose they spend an extra 7-10 grand per person a year to provide these services, cause that is what figure I would be making if they paid me. Then times that be a 50 man team, then add in teh 80 vollunteer fire guys that do their thing, then the community patrol folks, then he wilderness volunteers, then the volunteer ski patorlers, etc... If Obama wants to give us a couple million a year in "bailout money" it get that done... cool... payment for us to remain as dedicated as we would even if we don't get paid.

 

[subliminal1284]

I was always told if youre doing this type of work (EMS/Fire) for the money you should find a new job, yeah its great if you can get paid but this is something I want to do whether I am getting paid or not.

 

[reaper]

You have a paid 50 man search team? You Live in a National Park?

You have paid search and disaster dogs? You would be one of like 3 nationwide.

You have a paid Wilderness Medical Team? We are not talking Ski Patrol or a single Helo that can go anywhere, but a team comprised of EMT/OEC, WEMT, Paramedics, and ER MDs, that can get in by any means, to the most remote locations and spend days on end out there? Cool. Paid? Sign me up.

You Swiftwater and Ropes Teams are paid. That I believe as many times Fire takes these areas over. But we are not as blessed to have that as an option. It has been considered and is not possible from a logistical standpoint.

Your EMS System covers Swiftwater, Vertical Ropes, Wilderness Search (ATVs, Snowmobiles, Horses, Dogs, Skiiers, Snowshers, Helos, Hikers, Climbers, etc...)? It must be nice to practice Emergency Services in a glass tower deep in the heart of Urbania, 90210. My county is barely keeping the few current county employees paid, how do you propose they spend an extra 7-10 grand per person a year to provide these services, cause that is what figure I would be making if they paid me. Then times that be a 50 man team, then add in teh 80 vollunteer fire guys that do their thing, then the community patrol folks, then he wilderness volunteers, then the volunteer ski patorlers, etc... If Obama wants to give us a couple million a year in "bailout money" it get that done... cool... payment for us to remain as dedicated as we would even if we don't get paid.

Yes, we have a National and state parks in our area( all Mountains)

We have all the following.

Swift water team
Dive team
High/low angle team
Confined space team
SAR team
HSAR team (Helicopter)
K-9 SAR
Tac Medics

All members are fully paid for deployment and training. HSAR has it's own Helicopter for mountain insertions. Confined space team does cave rescues as well. K-9 team has 15 SAR dogs that are all deployable. SAR team has over 50 members and are ATV, Horseback or on the ground. Tac team is fully funded by a private retailer and all are fully swat trained and armed. This is all county run and paid for(expect tac team). We are not 90210, we are a mix of urban and extremely rural. We are not alone, the county next door has almost all the same teams and we can rely on each other, if needed.

It can be done by a county, if it wants to. Same way that EMS can be paid, if it wants to!

 

[Ridryder911]

I also know of a IHS EMS that provides the same service. So yes, it can be done in many forms. Again, I agree no one but one has read anymore into it than firefighting.

R/r 911

 

[VFFforpeople]

Just putting this out there for those who say, VFCs and other volunteers type things take money out of the system and forces people out of jobs. My county because the VFCs saved so much money last year on our fires is able to staff the Cal Fire engines 4o. They also were able to keep another paid station open, that was about to close. We run newer engines (1998-2002). Our equipment is some of the best around, some of it is better than paid gear. 90% of our company is paid fire or ems, it is cheap to get CEs and a VF. You also gain experiance and a place to train and drill your skills among peers. We are all trained to the levels of Cal Fire, and nor cal ems. Can't get around that. Our volunteers in our area were paid, from oakland FD,San Jose,SF. We have a vast amount of training and knowledge. I have learned alot from them, and many have gone to become training officers, pervention,helitack,medics for paid crews, but still come back to volunteer for the place they live. As said before you it doesnt work in all areas, my area is mostly agg. related or retirment community. All of you can say it can be done.You are right, if the community leaders are willing to take pay cuts,and re do the tax system. My city is number 9 in the nation for unemployment. So, feel free to tell me how you are going to pay a tax based system on that? I bet you can't.

 

[reaper]

Sell off half of the shiny red trucks that aren't needed?

 

[VFFforpeople]

Sell off half of the shiny red trucks that aren't needed?

HAHAHA!! Sorry ready that, I just laughed.(a serious laugh, i mean that was funny) If we didn't have to deal with so many..well there is alot of wastful spending being done. My area has done well with its ratio thus far. We seem to get along very well, I agree with needing more paid, until my area balances its budget we only have what we have.

 

[medic417]

Professional Volunteers

Theres an oxymoron. You can act professional as a volunteer but you can not be a professional.

As to OP any that fight improved education whether as paid or volly need to leave. Fighting fire is actually a science its not just putting wet stuff on the hot stuff. Yes I was a fire fighter but then I saw the light that I could not be the best when divided so I focused on EMS.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Theres an oxymoron. You can act professional as a volunteer but you can not be a professional.

As to OP any that fight improved education whether as paid or volly need to leave. Fighting fire is actually a science its not just putting wet stuff on the hot stuff. Yes I was a fire fighter but then I saw the light that I could not be the best when divided so I focused on EMS.

Thanks, I'll keep that first pearl of wisdom in mind...

The second part... no one is fihgting an increase in education. I love learning and believe that second you stop learning in emergency services (especially in medicine) is the second you need to leave. The issue is a blanketed hatred of volunteers by some people. They are so blinded by a hatred of Volunteer AMBULANCE that this hatred transitions over to all all volunteers providing EMS to the community. This hatred is so strong that they are they "do a happy dance" over the fact that the community mentioned in the OP may be left unprotected or with far less protection than before. Those attitudes make me sad to be affiliated with those here that claim to be in the field (thankless, uinderpaid, and overworked) just because they care... HA...

 

[JonTullos]

Yes, there are some communities that cannot afford professional and need volunteers and again I honor those areas, those are very remote and few. While you may not agree the town does not need a paid Paramedic in lieu of swimming pool for this summer or lights for the baseball field, etc.

My opinion against volunteers is that they want the role and function and respect of the professional .... only, if they can have it their own way.

Sorry, that is not how life is.

You want to play with the real ones, you need to be able to keep up with them.

Man, I have to agree with what someone else said: You've every educated but that sure is an uneducated generalization. I know a lot of paid idiots working in EMS. Paid or unpaid has nothing to do with it; it's the heart of the person who's in the service. I know many guys who went through EMT and even paramedic who did it simply to help their communities. They don't get a dime for what they do and don't care if they ever do. Some have other careers and don't want to leave them for whatever reason. You're saying that a guy who went through the same classes as a paid guy, yet is unpaid, is somehow inferior? I beg to differ.

I know of a lot of people in paid EMS who have no business being an orderly, let alone someone who holds someones life in their hands. I'd gladly take a dedicated volunteer over one of those idiots any day.

Let me be clear: I'm not against increased education. I'm against the increased education being a burden on the county or community that may have to fold their department because the guys have other responsibilities and can't meet the requirements. Again, the only losers will be the citizens.

 

[VFFforpeople]

As what you quoted by Rid. He isnt bad mouthing or putting down volunteers. I agree with him, and I am a VFF, I think if I am going to step up and help my community I need to stay up to date with current EMS related items or training. My VFC does, we train on the newest protocalls or subjects that come out. If a VFF came up to me and said, ya I am here to help, but I can't train all the time or I can't make half the educational trainings. Then I will ask him how do you have time to help the people? and bid him farwell. Some VFCs complain about having to learn more than just renegade level. Some other VFCs or other VCs take the extra step to stay current. Understand if your VC is one that stays up to date and you know it, then you have nothing to be offended over. I just see these post, and keep it as motivation to keep training and pushing my education. Hope you found these rambles of words helpful.

 

[JonTullos]

As what you quoted by Rid. He isnt bad mouthing or putting down volunteers. I agree with him, and I am a VFF, I think if I am going to step up and help my community I need to stay up to date with current EMS related items or training. My VFC does, we train on the newest protocalls or subjects that come out. If a VFF came up to me and said, ya I am here to help, but I can't train all the time or I can't make half the educational trainings. Then I will ask him how do you have time to help the people? and bid him farwell. Some VFCs complain about having to learn more than just renegade level. Some other VFCs or other VCs take the extra step to stay current. Understand if your VC is one that stays up to date and you know it, then you have nothing to be offended over. I just see these post, and keep it as motivation to keep training and pushing my education. Hope you found these rambles of words helpful.

I guess I missed the point of his post (sorry Rid!). I think education is mega important. I'm in the midst of improving mine... I'm taking the Basic class this summer (well, as far as I know - but that's another story) and I'm planning to take paramedic afterward. My problem is when the state starts mandating things and, while their intentions may be good, it can backfire and cause unintended consequences... like the death of a town or county's fire service due to burdensome requirements. Education is important... I can't emphasize that enough! I'm not saying that vollys shouldn't have requirements. In my county FFs are "strongly encouraged" to take the state course ASAP and to at least become EMRs. Not sure how many hours that amounts to though.

My complaint is two fold: States that mandate things that simply can't be met (and thus causing more harm) and people who start bashing volunteers simply because they're volunteers. Maybe a lot of counties and towns can have fully paid or paid on call departments but a lot also can't. Why bash for doing the best they can?

 

[bmennig]

Well, I agree with many posts on this topic. Volunteers will eventually be obsolete, it's inevidible. In some areas it will drag on longer than others to become obsolete but like i said it will happen. I'm very proud to be volunteer, always have been. I'm a paid EMT as well. Between the 2 is a totally different world. With a paid crew that gets 10-15 calls a day, your up to par on your protocols as well as patient care. In a rurual EMS department, it's very very difficult to produce a good EMT. I promote my agency to work for the paid service to gain experience and bring it to the firehouse, which is what I did. There's no doubt that there are unprofessionals in both sides (volly and paid). Some medics just do it for a paycheck and nothing else. Seeing it from both sides, volunteers usually do get a bad rap. Especially EMS volunteers. Some people do highly respect us and some dont (more don't than do). In this day and age, people want $$$ to do what volunteers do. Nobody wants to give their time for it. Firehouse politics don't help either. Around here, most firehouses are "family" based which means a particular "family" runs the firehouse (example: the fire chief is john smith and his kids pete and bob are the executive officers of the dept). That makes people angry becuase with family, politics runs wild. It all ties together. People then look outside the firehouse to do what they love (fire or EMS) and do it as a career. Around here, a career in the fire service is hard to come by because 98% of our area is volunteer. Some people go to other departments that aren't so "family" based and run there. These departments are usually stronger and prevail more than others. That's my 2 cents on it.

 

[reaper]

I guess I missed the point of his post (sorry Rid!). I think education is mega important. I'm in the midst of improving mine... I'm taking the Basic class this summer (well, as far as I know - but that's another story) and I'm planning to take paramedic afterward. My problem is when the state starts mandating things and, while their intentions may be good, it can backfire and cause unintended consequences... like the death of a town or county's fire service due to burdensome requirements. Education is important... I can't emphasize that enough! I'm not saying that vollys shouldn't have requirements. In my county FFs are "strongly encouraged" to take the state course ASAP and to at least become EMRs. Not sure how many hours that amounts to though.

My complaint is two fold: States that mandate things that simply can't be met (and thus causing more harm) and people who start bashing volunteers simply because they're volunteers. Maybe a lot of counties and towns can have fully paid or paid on call departments but a lot also can't. Why bash for doing the best they can?

But that is the whole point of mandated training. It ensures that they are trained to higher levels and stay there. One example is the state of FL. About 5 years ago the state mandated that all volunteer FF's had to have FF1 to work. There was a lot of complaining and the old timers did not want to waste their time. I put on classes for some of the volunteer FD's in the area I lived in. We had three Depts that just didn't show up or never made it through the training. Guess what? The county shut down the Depts and disbanded the FD's. I spoke at the meetings on this shut down and pushed to disband the dept's. If they could not take the time to get the free training, then they had no business fighting fires. The community that they served threw a fit about it, screaming that they would not be protected. That never happened. The county and surrounding dept's picked up the slack and the communities never knew the difference. Some have paid depts now and have found out that they were saving money over what they spent on volunteers and have better services now.

So yes, State mandated training is a good thing and should be pushed through at all costs. It is the only way to make sure that all dept's are held to the same standards.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

My problem is when the state starts mandating things and, while their intentions may be good, it can backfire and cause unintended consequences... like the death of a town or county's fire service due to burdensome requirements.

Boy, I guess if that's the case, then they should do away with all those "burdensome" things like medical school, interships, residency, fellowships... after all, we wouldn't want to see the death of a town's hospital due to burdensome requirements.

 

[medic417]

Thanks, I'll keep that first pearl of wisdom in mind... Your welcome.

The second part... no one is fihgting an increase in education.

Actually they are fighting against increased education, read the article.

 

[ffemt8978]

Actually they are fighting against increased education, read the article.

Are they fighting against increased education, or fighting an unfunded mandate increasing education?