the 100% directionless thread

[Aidey]

I would love to see some hard data on court judgements against EMS for violating the "standard of care" that does not qualify as gross stupidity and negligence. Look at all the trauma scenarios people post and say they would back board because of the standard of care. Now compare their opinion to the medical literature that shows backabords are at best useless and probably harmful. Which one is going to be more credible in court?

 

[Tigger]

It doesnt work that way in medicine. Or atleast it shouldn't.

There is no "I tried my best" when you blatantly give a non-indicated treatment and don't have the knowledge to back it up when you get a sit down for it.

Sorry I tried my hardest isn't a good defense in a courtroom either.

This is the troof. I'm all about educating others but at the same time it is not my job to repeatedly correct the ignorance of my coworkers. If I tell you once that you did something stupid that is not allowable (tough to do at BLS), that should be enough. To err is human, but only the first time.

 

[CANDawg]

I would love to see some hard data on court judgements against EMS for violating the "standard of care" that does not qualify as gross stupidity and negligence. Look at all the trauma scenarios people post and say they would back board because of the standard of care. Now compare their opinion to the medical literature that shows backabords are at best useless and probably harmful. Which one is going to be more credible in court?

If your protocols said backboard and the patient suffered spinal injuries directly related to you NOT backboarding, the court will find against you. Until you have an MD, judges don't like seeing you alter protocols on a whim.

I agree, the medical literature on backboards is overwhelming, and there are way more times they're used than when they should be. But that is a discussion that you should be having with your medical director - not a judge.

 

[NYMedic828]

If your protocols said backboard and the patient suffered spinal injuries directly related to you NOT backboarding, the court will find against you. Until you have an MD, judges don't like seeing you alter protocols on a whim.

I agree, the medical literature on backboards is overwhelming, and there are way more times they're used than when they should be. But that is a discussion that you should be having with your medical director - not a judge.

Find me a single court case where any ruling was made insinuating in any way shape or form that due to EMS not backboarding a patient that an injury was caused or exacerbated.

 

[JPINFV]

As for the standard of care, you may think it doesn't apply in EMS, but the court system disagrees. I can't give nitro to my 85 y/o patient with a c/c of n/v who just popped a Viagra and say "oh, you just don't understand." I'd get raked over the coals by my partner, supervisor, medical director, and possibly a judge - in that order.

There's more than a slight difference between a well known and universal medication contraindication and some of the real stupidity that EMS does... like "Supplemental oxygen and backboards FOR EVERYONE!" (hear that last sentence in this voice...). A paramedic who properly applies NEXUS criteria to not backboard someone after an accident is not going to get charged with negligence if the patient ends up having a vertebral column injury.

 

[JPINFV]

If your protocols said backboard and the patient suffered spinal injuries directly related to you NOT backboarding, the court will find against you. Until you have an MD, judges don't like seeing you alter protocols on a whim.

I agree, the medical literature on backboards is overwhelming, and there are way more times they're used than when they should be. But that is a discussion that you should be having with your medical director - not a judge.

1. However there are some systems that includes lines like the following in their protocols. "Standing orders are to be utilized as clinically indicated. Not every standing order in a treatment protocol must be carried out on every patient treated under that treatment protocol. Discretionary judgment is required." (emphasis added). It's really hard to argue that the protocols are the standard of care and should be followed like a cookbook when the protocol states that judgement is required to implement anything in it.

2. The cookbook-ocol mentality is why I'm no longer in EMS as an EMT and didn't advance to paramedic.

 

[VFlutter]

There's more than a slight difference between a well known and universal medication contraindication and some of the real stupidity that EMS does... like "Supplemental oxygen and backboards FOR EVERYONE!" (hear that last sentence in this voice...). A paramedic who properly applies NEXUS criteria to not backboard someone after an accident is not going to get charged with negligence if the patient ends up having a vertebral column injury.

Omgzzzzz it's your 10,000th post!!!!!!

 

[JPINFV]

Omgzzzzz it's your 10,000th post!!!!!!

Hahaha.... didn't even realize it. I've been here way too long...

 

[Asclepius911]

I don't know what to think of that pic you posted, is he sad or happy, crazy? Or so happy that he is crazy sad ?

 

[VFlutter]

I don't know what to think of that pic you posted, is he sad or happy, crazy? Or so happy that he is crazy sad ?

You need to watch a jackass movie.....

 

[EpiEMS]

It's really hard to argue that the protocols are the standard of care and should be followed like a cookbook when the protocol states that judgement is required to implement anything in it.

Not to mention that lots of what's in the protocols doesn't match with evidence. That's one of the many problems with the protocol-based, EMS as physician extender model.

 

[CANDawg]

Find me a single court case where any ruling was made insinuating in any way shape or form that due to EMS not backboarding a patient that an injury was caused or exacerbated.

 

[usalsfyre]

If the patient suffered spinal injuries directly related to you NOT backboarding

How in the Phuket, Thailand do you prove THAT one?

The truly bad thing about civil trials is the standards of "proof" are markedly lower. In the US at the moment it's more like "prove this might have possibly maybe if the stars lined up right contributed to the injury".

 

[Tigger]

Ah, beat me. I have 1 semester calc (covered Calc 1 and 2), 1 semester calc-based stats, 3 semesters of bio (2 of 3 w/lab), and 1 semester of psych. Sounds like I need to bone up on physical sciences. Econ major, myself.

When do you graduate? I'm May of 2013.

May 2013 too. Political Science major, not a lot of overlap. However I have learned quite a bit about policy making and the like which I think has greatly contributed to how I look at EMS and how I am able to discuss. My "concentration" is on local government so it's all tied in.

In other news today is my 21st birthday!

 

[fast65]

May 2013 too. Political Science major, not a lot of overlap. However I have learned quite a bit about policy making and the like which I think has greatly contributed to how I look at EMS and how I am able to discuss. My "concentration" is on local government so it's all tied in.

In other news today is my 21st birthday!

Happy birthday. Please drink responsibly, if you intend to do so.

 

[VFlutter]

May 2013 too. Political Science major, not a lot of overlap. However I have learned quite a bit about policy making and the like which I think has greatly contributed to how I look at EMS and how I am able to discuss. My "concentration" is on local government so it's all tied in.

In other news today is my 21st birthday!

I highly recommend cement mixers for your first shot. Very tasty

 

[Medic Tim]

I highly recommend cement mixers for your first shot. Very tasty

Luls

 

[Chimpie]

Listening to a fire dept work a two alarm fire in a ten story apt building. It really bugs me when Command really isn't commanding.

 

[usalsfyre]

The biggest suck about divorce is the times that you miss ordinary.

 

[Chimpie]

Operations Lead: "We need a secondary search of the 4th floor. What company can take care of that for me?"
Engine 14: "Engine 14 can take care of that."

Ugh... you're a lead. You're supposed to be assigning companies to tasks, not asking for volunteers.