Tattoo Hatred

[teedubbyaw]

 

[Carlos Danger]

We should not be attempting to make a positive impression on patients with our bodies. By that token, we should also discriminate against overweight or unattractive people.

So now it's discriminatory to expect employees to maintain an appearance that adheres to broadly accepted standards of professionalism?

And expecting professionals to maintain standards of appearance is forcing them to "make an impression with their bodies"?

My brain is starting to hurt.....

 

[triemal04]

We should not be attempting to make a positive impression on patients with our bodies. By that token, we should also discriminate against overweight or unattractive people.

As a profession that aims to be perceived as "the good guys," heroes even, we should comport ourselves as such. That is part of that "higher standard" we hold ourselves and each other to; to act as the good guys, not just pretend to be the good guys.

We should be the first profession without discrimination, not the last.

It's funny, I agree with most of what you're saying...I just think you don't have a firm grasp of the reality that is in place in THE VAST MAJORITY OF THIS COUNTRY.

I really don't know what else to say besides this:

I agree. But...there are situations where changing the status quo needs to happen in other areas first before changing in all areas. EMS, and the medical field at large, are in that type of situation. We as a whole need to keep the confidence and faith of the public at large, AND are viewed with more scrutiny and with a more strict sense of what a professional appearance is. As tattoos become more widespread and passe and the public at large starts to lose previous beliefs about them, that will pass on to all groups, including medical providers, and it won't matter anymore.

But we aren't there yet.

This just isn't the time to be at the forefront of change.

You can try to couch it in whatever simple terms you want, but the fact still remains that the medical profession is not the place to be trying to effect changes in public perception of this nature. The expectation and de facto requirements by those we serve are at a different level than many other groups. Like it or not, it's really that simple.

If you, or anyone chooses to get full sleeves (for example) that's fine, hopefully you have a persona that will help to make people rethink any prior opinions about tattoos. But, if you attempt to enter into a field that has different standards and is held to different levels of personal grooming standards, no matter what your own personal beliefs are, you may have problems, both finding employment, with how you are treated by coworkers (which includes people outside your own service but who are still in the medical field), and by the people you serve.

The medical field is not the place to be pushing this sort of change.

 

[CALEMT]

Ok violyn U can join the club too. There should be a thread to show off all the cool pieces people have now that the whole visibility at work thing has been beaten to death from both sides of the fence.

I remember a thread on here awhile ago I think it was called something like "show me the ink" or something along the lines of that.

 

[Chimpie]

Let's try to keep things polite and on topic please.

 

[Chimpie]

I remember a thread on here awhile ago I think it was called something like "show me the ink" or something along the lines of that.

Yep, here it is: http://emtlife.com/threads/show-me-your-ink.8025/

Again, it's a really old thread. Dating back to 2006 so a lot of the images are broken. The thread has already been closed.

 

[Rin]

So now it's discriminatory to expect employees to maintain an appearance that adheres to broadly accepted standards of professionalism?

And expecting professionals to maintain standards of appearance is forcing them to "make an impression with their bodies"?

My brain is starting to hurt.....

discriminate: v. to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit

Yes, it is discriminatory to decide a person is unfit for a job based on appearance, rather than skill.

It's funny, I agree with most of what you're saying...I just think you don't have a firm grasp of the reality that is in place in THE VAST MAJORITY OF THIS COUNTRY.
...
The medical field is not the place to be pushing this sort of change.

I do realize that much of this country is conservative, but I'm an idealist. I would push for change everywhere I see a lack, so there can be more freedom, sooner. We do a slow crawl towards accepting people's differences, and in the meantime, their lives are negatively impacted for no good reason.

 

[JWalters]

If you read the whole post you might might see that sandpit's point is about professionalism and public opinion, not once does he denigrate those WITH tattoos.

And don't tell me about the culture I live in as it is not the same as Texas, could be two different countries.

Maybe younger generations will be more accepting of visible ink on professionals, but EMS is not the battleground for cultural opinion. Tuck your shirt in, get a haircut.

Yep. The vast majority of people served by EMS are elderly and it is THEIR culture that tattoos are non-professional, etc. I tend to agree, even though I have (non visible while in uniform) ink. It can be very scary to have EMS involved in your care, even if just for a transport. Looking professional is one way that we can help people be more willing to put some trust in us. I have a feeling that when the now 20-somethings are the majority of patients we will see a huge difference in professional standards. And honestly, I don't think that is a good thing.

 

[Carlos Danger]

discriminate: v. to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit

Yes, it is discriminatory to decide a person is unfit for a job based on appearance, rather than skill.


I do realize that much of this country is conservative, but I'm an idealist. I would push for change everywhere I see a lack, so there can be more freedom, sooner. We do a slow crawl towards accepting people's differences, and in the meantime, their lives are negatively impacted for no good reason.

I am sorry, but you are not a "victim" if you want to get all tatted up and get those fake devil horns implanted in your forehead but your employer or potential employer has policies against it. Those policies exist for a reason, and they reflect the reality of the real, adult, imperfect world that we live in.

It's quite a testament to the victim mentality that pervades our culture these days that people can't recognize the difference between an individual not being hired because of their race or gender, and an individual not being hired because they voluntarily and willingly choose to violate the well-known and generally accepted norms for appearance that equally apply to all races and genders involved in a professional public service role. Big, big difference.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

1. EMS is not a cultural battleground.

2. CHOOSING to put visible ink on your body is NOT the same as being BORN black or gay or whatever.

3. There are consequences to your actions. I find that the younger generation doesn't understand this for whatever reason. You go against social norms, you deal with the consequences. This is coming from a guy who once had dreadlocks, both ears pierced, and drove lime green 1976 VW bus.

4. There is a big difference between visible and non-visible tattoos and I think some of you aren't getting that. There is no "hatred of tattoos" going on here. The personal attacks that are happening aren't even about the ink. One side is simply saying, you can't be surprised when your arm sleeve and knuckle tatts keep you from scoring a job in the SERVICE industry, or if you land a job that you are asked to cover them up on duty.

5. This is a never ending cycle of wanting to be taken seriously as a medical profession on one hand, and wanting to be the rebel doing what doctors do at 90 mph on the other. In that pic of the doc with all the ink, how much of that was visible when he is wearing his white coat?

 

[triemal04]

discriminate: v. to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit

Yes, it is discriminatory to decide a person is unfit for a job based on appearance, rather than skill.

I do realize that much of this country is conservative, but I'm an idealist. I would push for change everywhere I see a lack, so there can be more freedom, sooner. We do a slow crawl towards accepting people's differences, and in the meantime, their lives are negatively impacted for no good reason.

Actually the reason is a very good one and very simple; The expectation and de facto requirements by those we serve are at a different level than many other groups, and you are attempting to enter into a field that has different standards and is held to different levels of personal grooming standards...

Either you don't understand what that means and why it matters, which isn't good, or you refuse to believe that, which also isn't good.

If you make a PERSONAL CHOICE to do something that may have a negative effect on your employment prospects or how you are treated by THE PEOPLE YOU SERVE that's unfortunate, but you made a CHOICE to do that, KNOWING that the field you are trying to enter is different than working as say...a mechanic. If it causes you problems...it's your own fault.

Right now...tough luck.

 

[Rin]

My only point in comparing having tattoos to being black or being gay is that they draw the same level of distrust from conservative patients. Other distrusted groups manage to overcome similar obstacles to patient care and community trust.

Great job on turning "victim" into a bad word though. You want to discriminate against a group based on appearance, but I'm the bad guy for pointing it out? Okay. I guess it's easy to defend inequality when you're on top.

While we're talking about gaining our communities' trust, why is it that only the elderly white demographic matters? Younger people are more accepting of tattoos. In a predominantly black neighborhood, white providers might garner automatic distrust. But dare to suggest that departments mirror the demographics of the community and listen to the cry that goes up of "it doesn't matter what a provider looks like, just that they're the best person for the job!"

My point is that the concept of appearing trustworthy to the community is being applied very unevenly. The ideal appearance to gain the trust of every demographic does not exist.

As a point of interest, since my appearance and employability has come under fire, I do not have any tattoos, and I had no difficulty obtaining a job. Sorry if was easier to attack someone with the assumption that they're just whining about the consequences of their poor choices.

 

[DesertMedic66]

My point is that the concept of appearing trustworthy to the community is being applied very unevenly. The ideal appearance to gain the trust of every demographic does not exist

No it does not exist however when something as simple as covering tattoos will help gain the trust of a demographic group why shouldn't it be done?

You can't change the fact you are white, black, brown, purple, yellow, or magenta. You can't change the fact you are male or female (well you can, it's just a long process). It takes a while to fix the issue of being overweight. It takes the couple of seconds to put on a long sleeve shirt to help a patient group trust you. So why not take the time it takes to put on a shirt if it helps a group trust you?

 

[CALEMT]

My only point in comparing having tattoos to being black or being gay is that they draw the same level of distrust from conservative patients. Other distrusted groups manage to overcome similar obstacles to patient care and community trust.

Great job on turning "victim" into a bad word though. You want to discriminate against a group based on appearance, but I'm the bad guy for pointing it out? Okay. I guess it's easy to defend inequality when you're on top.

While we're talking about gaining our communities' trust, why is it that only the elderly white demographic matters? Younger people are more accepting of tattoos. In a predominantly black neighborhood, white providers might garner automatic distrust. But dare to suggest that departments mirror the demographics of the community and listen to the cry that goes up of "it doesn't matter what a provider looks like, just that they're the best person for the job!"

My point is that the concept of appearing trustworthy to the community is being applied very unevenly. The ideal appearance to gain the trust of every demographic does not exist.

As a point of interest, since my appearance and employability has come under fire, I do not have any tattoos, and I had no difficulty obtaining a job. Sorry if was easier to attack someone with the assumption that they're just whining about the consequences of their poor choices.

Since when does being black, white, gay, straight, catholic, or muslim draw distrust in a patient? Im having a hard time understanding this. Where I live is one of the more culturally diverse places in Southern California, you literally can run a call at a multi million dollar house and 5 minutes later you can be in the ghetto. The patients I've seen and transported have ranged from the WW2 vet who landed on D-Day to the gangster on the street. Neither of which cared about my skin color, or any first responders skin color for that matter. You can't compare tattoos to skin color. You chose to get tattoos, you don't get to chose if you're born white, black, boy, girl.

We work in the industry that is the most scrutinized by people. How we do this, how we do that, how we look, why we did this instead of that. We are public servants, there should be a sense of pride that comes with putting on the uniform and serving the people. If you have tattoos its the simple act of putting on a long sleeve shirt or a under armor sleeve to cover them up (while on duty). Why do this? Because you look more presentable and you look like you give a damn on how you represent your company/ department and that you have a sense of professionalism that comes with this job. To me it would be the same as showing up on a call with your shirt untucked, boots untied/ unzipped, unpolished polished, or in a dirty uniform.

 

[SandpitMedic]

I've been trying to read more and post less on this but Jeeeeezzzzzus!

Being in this field, Rin...
You should know... Victim is a bad word...

Because mostly everyone nowadays is playing the victim card to shift blame away from their faults and deficits. Anything but accepting personal responsibility. I see this is more predominant in the younger generation, but diffuse throughout our American culture. From the top down.

I suppose it would be (in your eyes) discrimation for me to say the younger generation has a real problem with this and with exceptionalism and the sense of entitlement. And that you look like one of the members of the younger generation. Maybe that's why you're having a difficult time with this. However, I am 27 and a member of the same younger generation, so it can't be discrimination - it's just an observation of my surroundings.

I can not grasp why some people can not grasp that this field is not the place to try to differentiate yourself from the normal standard of professionalism. This is a PROFESSION! What in the world do you not understand!

"Look sharp, act sharp, be sharp - but don't cut yourself." I read that on another forum.

This thing is evolving beyond its intention into a psychosocial debate about our culture and the many facets of why some of feel this country just isn't what it used to be. Racism being equated to tattoos being unprofessional?! Are you kidding?!

Well shoot, we shouldn't be forced to wear a uniform anymore either, navy blue offends me and I feel more comfortable in my grey sweat pants... Oh, 'that's not allowed' you say? Well you're just intolerant of others and will be needing a social adjustment with diversity and sensitivity training. !!!! Holy !*+!'%££#|£!!!!

We all know the adage that just because we've done something for years doesn't make it right.

Well there's a flipside that is sometimes what we've been doing for years is something we do because it is right!

Traditions and values, ethics and ethos, codes of conduct and standards of professionalism are GOOD things.

**** me. Maybe I'm flirting with a ban, I'm the pot near the kettle with my rant here, but really... Crying social injustice over this. Man. I'll take my own 2 week vacation from this. So unreal.

And thank you Remi for saying all the things I want to say, but with more tact and elegance.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

As a point of interest, since my appearance and employability has come under fire, I do not have any tattoos, and I had no difficulty obtaining a job. Sorry if was easier to attack someone with the assumption that they're just whining about the consequences of their poor choices.

I will point out, once again, that no one is making PERSONAL attacks here.

If I needed a lawyer, and some guy with short sleeves and tatts all the way down showed up...I am not going to judge him personally, but I sure as heck don't want him representing me in front of a court. I doubt the judge would even let a lawyer in the courtroom. Why? Because its a statement to the world that you are counter-culture. Is that a bad thing? No, in fact I consider myself "semi" counter culture, much more so when I was younger, but I digress. But again, EMS, like a courtroom, is not the place to fight a culture war, or to disprove stereotypes.

If you have tatts and need a job, wear long sleeves and no one will even question you. Why is this such a big deal?

 

[Handsome Robb]

I have tattoos. I've spent 30+ hours in the chair and thousands of dollars on them. I receive compliments on them all the time. My employer asks me to cover them so I do. I work in an area where the climate changes drastically. It can be below freezing one day and warm the next. The summers can be 100+ or in the 70s-80s. I don't understand why being asked to cover them while you're at work is a big deal. Do I get warm sometimes when it's hot out and I'm wearing long sleeves? Absolutely, but at the end of the day it's actually better to cover them from direct sunlight as it protects them and keeps them looking good for longer. I didn't get tattoos for other people, I got them for myself. Why is it so important to be able to show them off?

While it may not be "right" to judge people on their appearance it happens every day. Our patients judge us and we judge our patients. It's something we're taught in school. You look at the environment you're in when you arrive on scene and begin forming an idea of what's going on. Walk into a smoke filled house that's covered in trash and dirty dishes, with O2 containers and inhalers everywhere "hey...I this patient probably has respiratory problems and doesn't take great care of themselves."

Multiple bottles of the same medication with different fill dates on them..."this patient is probably non-compliant with their medications."

 

[Whitney Cadena]

I'm going to point something out to all of you. Maybe it's because I am optimistic too much or I once was in the patient's shoes at a time in my life. APPEARANCE has nothing to do with character, professionalism, or integrity. I had two lovely nicely groomed, NON TATTOOED baboons transport me to the trauma hospital 5 minutes from my house. I had a fractured femur and a collapsed lung. I also was swinging in and out of consciousness because I COULDN'T BREATHE which eventually resulted in me having seizures back to back. It only took them 30 minutes to get me to the hospital that was 5 minutes away. I had no oxygen put on and the medic in the back kept mocking me about "o's" Apparently "O" is Percocet which I was not provided for the pain. Needless to say they are the reason I am in EMS.

I have met EMT's, Nurses, Doctor's, and Medic's all with and without tattoo's. Some were respectful and some were downright disrespectful. If you have thug life tattooed on your knuckles, but treat me like a person with dignity and respect, I will see past that. If you don't have any tattoo's but treat me like I just crawled out the sewer I will not respect you. SIMPLE.

The public's perception is not based on the ink in your skin. Their perception is based off of how you speak, how you act, and how you carry yourselves in a professional setting. You can have the most tatted up bad *** EMT,MEDIC,NURSE, or DOCTOR save your life or take it. The same goes for Non tattooed EMT,NURSE,DOCTOR,& MEDIC. Having tattoo's should have no correlation in how you treat a pt or a human being. You can be a jerk with or without tattoo's or an Angel with or without tattoo's.

I'm more worried about partner's who don't communicate with each other. Believe it or not the pt's can sense hostility before anything. That really throws them overboard.
Just my 2 pennies.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

^agreed for the most part.

Tattoos are not the end all of professionalism. Its a whole package. Of course nice, smart people have tattoos (like me), and plenty of a holes are ink free. Professionalism is how you present yourself, from the color/style of your hair, whether your shirt is tucked in, if your boots are polished, to whether you have the star of life slaying the grim reaper crawling down your arm. Its also an attitude. By attitude I don't just mean how you talk to patients. When I got my first job in EMS my manager told me I needed a haircut, I said "yes sir, thank you". One of my partners had to chop up the fingers of nitrile gloves to cover his knuckle tatts a few times per shift and I never heard him complain. This is the attitude of a professional.

And yes, in an emergent situation no one is going to care or even notice your tatts, but seriously, what percentage of your calls are legit vs driving miss daisy, and how many of us are predominately IFT, which is 100% a service industry where there is competition and the customer has choices.

 

[COmedic17]

Gauges gross me out. When they take the jewelery out of the holes they look like sphincters.