Studies on ALS first response and tiered vs. all-ALS

[Fish]

I addressed this with post # 79.

Also, we learned from the Charleston 9 that we don't risk our lives to save property. Potential victims, absolutely, but not property alone. It's all risk-reward.

I am glad your department has taken that stance, I am tired of seeing area Fire Departments trying to do interiors on a fully involved wharehouse. That is absolutely irresponsible in my opinion, if someone died from that it wuld be a needless death. Why die to save some wood pallets and RV parts?

 

[Fish]

I think what denadog was trying to say is that while the incidence of confirmed structure fires are way down, the importance of a timely response when that emergency does occur is still just as important. We have no way to predict when and where these fires will occur.

When we arrive onscene, we're absolutely going to do a primary search, unless everyone is reported to be out of the house, and also accounted for. This is our mandate. What we do before going in is look at the conditions, and determine if an area of the structure is tenable before committing to a search. Obviously if a room or floor is fully charged with thick smoke for a while, or if the thermal imager shows oven like temps, no one unprotected could possibly be viable, so we wouldn't search that area. Obviously if most or all of the house is engulfed, we're not going to search. If it's newer construction, and it's the fire has spread through the void spaces, it will fail soon, so we're not going to make an interior attack. On the same token, a home can be fully charged with smoke, and the fire can be little more than a room and contents (not affecting the structural members, thus no immediate threat of building collapse).

Basically, if there is the chance of a victim being insidee, and the conditions are such that the victim could still be viable, we have to risk our own necks to search. If the conditions are untenable, the victim will be dead anyway, and we can write them off.

Also, if we're working a fully involved garden apartment or townhome unit, hitting it with master streams (large GPM exterior lines), and going inside to mop up (even spraying from the doorway then treading carefully), we can save all the exposures on either side.

Here's an example of a flashover while crews were making an interior attack, with a report of a possible trapped occupant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30SCtOHUGhc

This was a couple of minutes after entry. The room can flash quickly. It can look okay one minute, and be going off the next. It happens that fast. The Truck company was upstairs searching, and they were okay. E422 were pulled out from the front entryway by R426. Everyone was okay. We have really good gear. No burns on this one. We also saved the row by containing the fire to the end unit, BTW.

Haha, I had to turn down the volume on that video if you know what I mean.

What would you say the ratio of Fires to fires with victims trapped are? Not possible, bu confirmed. And have you ever personally pulled someone out of a Fire Ladder 49 style? Better yet, have you ever gone to a bar and get drunk in your FD apparell like they do in the movie?

 

[atropine]

Better yet, have you ever gone to a bar and get drunk in your FD apparell like they do in the movie?[/QUOTE]

Yeah multiple times, and strip clubs, they always say here comes that OCFA guy again

 

[46Young]

Haha, I had to turn down the volume on that video if you know what I mean.

What would you say the ratio of Fires to fires with victims trapped are? Not possible, bu confirmed. And have you ever personally pulled someone out of a Fire Ladder 49 style? Better yet, have you ever gone to a bar and get drunk in your FD apparell like they do in the movie?

Back in the day, we used to have what you call "still alarms." This was when there was a call for a building fire, but it was unconfirmed. The dispatch would be just an engine and a truck. Now, any report of any kind of fire or smoke in a building automatically becomes a box alarm, with a dozen or so units. Most of the time, it's food on the stove or less. So, true structure fires, particularly ones that have progressed past room and contents are infrequent.

We haven't had too many reported trapped in our county. The people here are typically middle to upper class, have some common sense, have smoke detectors, CO alarms, practice sound fire prevention, etc. We don't have the same frequency of neglect and ignorance that we find in poorer areas. We don't generally get people falling asleep on the couch with a lit cigarette, leaving the oven on then leaving the house, using space heaters improperly in the house, relatively few homes illegally petitioned for occupancy by 10-20 renters, etc. So no, I haven't made any grabs. Everyone's usually out by the time we get there.

As far as getting hammered in our uniforms, the county prohibits members wearing uniforms/gear in any manner that reflects poorly on the department's image. We're not even supposed to go shopping for dinner supplies for the shift in our bunker gear. We have clearly specified SOP's for uniforms and appearance.

 

[46Young]

I am glad your department has taken that stance, I am tired of seeing area Fire Departments trying to do interiors on a fully involved wharehouse. That is absolutely irresponsible in my opinion, if someone died from that it wuld be a needless death. Why die to save some wood pallets and RV parts?

Nowadays, a unit officer would be accountable in court if they gave an unsafe/unreasonable order that got someone on their crew hurt or killed. We also have various operating manuals that are not too unlike EMS protocols. They function as guidelines for fireground operations and other emergencies. These are based on NFPA standards, and can be used in court as well.

 

[denadog]

Spare me the histrionics. Honestly how often is that the case? Have you ever made a grab? When was the last time you were on a scene where one was made?

You sound like a kid who wants to get on with an FD and has bought 100% into what your told. Let a building fall on someone you know when they should have never been inside in the first place. It'll change your perspective.

Yes I have been to a fire where a rescue was made and the coolest thing about it was that the Firefighter dragged the lady out onto the lawn and took off his breather and started treating her because he was also an EMT… even rode in the ambulance. And yes you are right about me and I think one of the best things about the fire service is that you are such a versatile resource and able to be used for all kinds of emergencies including medical, my passion for EMS is equal to if not greater than that for fire prevention and suppression.

I have a lot of respect for you as a Firefighter and I am sure that you bring a lot more knowledge to this than me. The whole reason I am on here is to learn and hear other people's perspectives on EMS and firefighting.

 

[Fish]

Better yet, have you ever gone to a bar and get drunk in your FD apparell like they do in the movie?

Yeah multiple times, and strip clubs, they always say here comes that OCFA guy again[/QUOTE]

I bet them strippers are all over you to, because they know how high of a paycheck OCFA gets. :glare:

 

[Fish]

Nowadays, a unit officer would be accountable in court if they gave an unsafe/unreasonable order that got someone on their crew hurt or killed. We also have various operating manuals that are not too unlike EMS protocols. They function as guidelines for fireground operations and other emergencies. These are based on NFPA standards, and can be used in court as well.

I expect every Fire Fighter to be running away just like me while the Guns and Ammo store goes up and flames and bullets start flying out of it. Not go inside screamin save the Winchesters!!!!!!

 

[DrParasite]

I expect every Fire Fighter to be running away just like me while the Guns and Ammo store goes up and flames and bullets start flying out of it. Not go inside screamin save the Winchesters!!!!!!

and oddly enough, if the guns and ammo store goes up, the bullets maybe be exploding, but not having the projectile actually shot out of the bullet.

Scary? yep. life threateningly dangerous? not so much.

 

[Fish]

and oddly enough, if the guns and ammo store goes up, the bullets maybe be exploding, but not having the projectile actually shot out of the bullet.

Scary? yep. life threateningly dangerous? not so much.

Isn't it something like only the automatic ammo will be the only ammo to actually take flight? Your average pistol round, shot gun shell, will just pop

 

[DrParasite]

no, it's none of them.

the rounds shoot because the primer gets struck by the hammer of the firearm, causing the gunpowder to explode and push the projectile part of the bullet forward.

when the bullets explode in the fire, it is only because of the heat, so they explode, but don't shoot like when the primer is struck.

will you need to change your shorts? almost definitely. will you actually be shot? very unlikely.

 

[JPINFV]

Exploding is exploding, be it cooking off or the primer being struck. The biggest difference is going to be the lack of a firing chamber and barrel to channel the explosion and dramatically increase the pressure. PV=nRT. With a barrel/firing chamber, the initial volume is very small, hence pressure goes up with the temperature. However without a barrel/firing chamber, V is very large in comparison, hence less of an increase in pressure.

 

[Meursault]

and oddly enough, if the guns and ammo store goes up, the bullets maybe be exploding, but not having the projectile actually shot out of the bullet.

Scary? yep. life threateningly dangerous? not so much.

I've seen descriptions and photos of a number of incidents where rounds misfired then exploded after being ejected. There were some injuries, mostly from cartridge fragments. I'm told that, without the chamber to confine a round, you essentially have a tiny brass pipe bomb; the force is distributed more or less evenly and ends up blowing the cartridge apart rather than propelling the bullet forwards. It's probably somewhat less dangerous than bullets flying everywhere would be, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it.

 

[Fish]

I've seen descriptions and photos of a number of incidents where rounds misfired then exploded after being ejected. There were some injuries, mostly from cartridge fragments. I'm told that, without the chamber to confine a round, you essentially have a tiny brass pipe bomb; the force is distributed more or less evenly and ends up blowing the cartridge apart rather than propelling the bullet forwards. It's probably somewhat less dangerous than bullets flying everywhere would be, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it.

Makes sense to me, I have never actually seen or heard a bullet go by me. Just heard the pop pop and went FML! I a sitting behind the Ambulance and eating some jerkey while the Fire Boys put the Wet stuff on the Hot stuff.

 

[RocketMedic]

Burning ammo is sort of dangerous, but my fear in those situations is burning solvents and reloading supplies. A keg or ten of gunpowder going off is a lot more serious than a box of 45ACP, and in many sporting-goods and gun stores, there's literally dozens or hundreds of kilos of gunpowder for reloaders and such.

 

[usalsfyre]

Understand that modern smokeless powder does not "explode" per say, only burns rapidly in a controlled manner. Powder when ignited outside of a case will just sorta burn. The much bigger concerns in a reloaders house are any black powder or, especially, primers which ARE an explosive compound.

 

[RocketMedic]

Exactly- but you can't prove that it's not blackpowder or primers unless you're literally reading every keg and know what you're looking for. Best to avoid the whole issue by maintaining distance and very, very aggressive drowning IMO.

 

[Fish]

I do not know much about guns or ammo, I was never in the Military, and I do not own a gun. All I know is that when I hear pop pop pop, I run around with my hands flailed up in the air screaming the North Koreans are attacking! Until someone tackles me, stabs me in the bum with a syringe containing Geodon and pets my head telling me everything is ok, and that it is time to go sleepy sleep now.

 

[RocketMedic]

Lol ive got loaded guns in arms reach now. Texas ftw

 

[DV_EMT]

I think that LA CO FD does a great job with their current systme. They have a BLS engine on every call, and ALS squad and a BLS ambulance, so if ALS is not needed the engine can cancell them prior their arrival, or after an assesment had been made and the pt. does not require ALS, then the pt. may go by BLS ambulance. They have been doing this for years.

Depends on where you're running as well. I know that McCormick runs ALS units as well as BLS. Usually LACoFD has an ALS Truck show up just in case its a BLS ambulance (provided that its not a ALS LACoFD Rescue unit).