Speeding with family...

firecoins said:
It is ridiculous for police to interfere with an ambulance enroute to or from an emergency scene in order to enforce traffic laws. There are traffic laws written under the guise of safety that have little to do with safety. What are they written for? Money collected from cops issuing tickets. There are still speeding laws written during oil shortages of the 1970's on the assumption the limit saves gas but is kept in place because raising it would mean fewer speeding tickets.
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What ? .. What facts do you have to back such ridiculous statements .

Have you not learned any kinematics of trauma ?

Kinetic Energy KE= 1/2 mv2

For example a 160 pound person traveling at 30 mph :
KE= 160 X 30 (2)
2 = 72,000 units

Just by increasing a speed of 10 mph

KE= 150 X 40 (2)
2 = 120,000 units.

This is all taught in BTLS, PHTLS for a reason. Safety laws are written because unfortunately most people are too stupid to care for themselves. Compare seat belt laws, helmet protection.. etc. True, they should not stop the EMS unit, thus furthering delay, however; they should ticket them when they get to the ER. Driving 85 mph is not in regard to public safety and the patient as well.

The only reason given anyone drives fast in EMS they are not able to or know what to do to handle the patients condition Driving fast will not save any true additional time (if driving safe) or save anyone. If they have sustained those severe injuries .. they will die anyway. Again, instead of looking at "run and haul" we should focus on true safe solutions.

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
What ? .. What facts do you have to back such ridiculous statements .
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Its called politics. How can politicians raise money without raising taxes? Hmmm. The budget is going up and people don't want higher taxes. Where ever will they get the money? I know! More violations that bring in money! Why yes! What wonderful idea! ITs sounds great.

Seatbelt laws for adults, helmet laws: laws that protect people too dumb to protect themselves in first place.
Every adult understand why we wear the sealtbelt. Bike riders or motorcycleists understand that they will incur severe head trauma in an accident. I think the word is out at this point. Why should they be forced to wear one? Is it really the government's job to protect one from themselves? Same goes for seatbelts on adults. Why is it the governement's job to protect one from themselves? Not wearcing seatbelts or helmets does not affect other people in car accidents. Just those suppossed to wear them.
 
I totally agree the government should not be involved, as long as one assumes the full risk. When I worked as a Trauma System Specialist, many states wanted to enforce more regulations. My response was to those that opposed such regulations to make a contract with the state with proof to back it.

If one does not want to wear a seat belt, or even a helmet .. okay, put up a half million dollar bond, with a agreement that your insurance, employer, and yes the state does not have to fund your family or you while you are incapacitated or die.

It should however not be my responsibility to you for your poor and foolish actions.. remember ... it is your right to be foolish and stupid.

Want to know what the number one killer for those between the ages of 20 to 35 is ?.. It is trauma. Now take this in consideration the average hospital costs for traumatic patients is approximately > $100,000 and those with TBI average >$1 million. Usually, those involved have families, employed, etc.. Now, consider family income decreases by one, stressors to the family. A worker now has to be replaced and retrained.. What are the costs ?..

Now where do these family, patients turn to when they need help.. the government. So, yes it is their responsibility when in the long run they have to pay for it. Again, it is better for the many over the one. As well everyone pays for it.. per taxes, increased insurance premiums, increased medical care costs (trauma reimbursements is usually only 45%), decreased "potential" (those that are productive: workforce, pay taxes) members of the society as a whole. So yes, by not wearing seat belts does effect more than themselves... It costs us all!

Don' believe me research it.. ( resources: American Trauma Society, the American College of Surgeons, and Traumatic Brain Injury Society, as well the governing body of EMS : NHTSA) There is "tons" of studies and valid research over the past 40 years validating such.


Now, attempting to compare most municipality budgets for operations is from moving violations is not valid as well. Albeit, I am sure it does make a substantial portion of smaller rural areas and portions of operations, but again research will demonstrate that it usually only provides a small portion of the operating budget. Again research operating budgets and local governments and will see your understanding is off. Most local governments funding is through federal grants, local sales and property taxes.(resources from Center of Economic & Development Growth, National Municipality Managers Society ). Traffic violations would not fund most Police departments but maybe for a few days. Again, if you do not violate the law.. one does not have to worry. If you don't like the law.. then have it changed.

As health care and emergency medical service professionals we should be promoting safe speeds, appropriate driving and the use of safety devices.

For several reasons:
1. It is our duty and job to promote healthy, safety living per injury prevention. (now part of the Paramedic curriculum)

2. Such devices been scientifically proven to be beneficial to the public. Decreasing death, injuries and

3. Speeding and being unsafe has no validation at all either in EMS or public use.


R/r 911
 
Speeding ticket, moving violation and other citations don't need to finance everything. They don't even need to finance a large percentage. They are a line of revenue. Its that simple. Its free money. I am a NY resident. I got 2 speeding tickets in my life, both in NJ. NJ and NY's DMV are attached but nothing appeared on my record because Jersey got my money.

NYC, 2001. A parking ticket was $55. 2002, Mayor Bloomberg finding a budget crisi caused by 9/11 uped the parking tickets to $115. The number of offense to be towed went up where it was $ 185 just to get the car back with a $115 ticket. It was and continues to be a nice chunk of change for NYC.

Cigarette smoking is bad fgr you. The # of public places illegal to smoke increase all the time but smoking itself remains legal. Why? Tax revenue.

Speeding tickets, parking tickets and other violations are a nice chunk of change. They don't need to cover everything. Just make a nice profit.
 
Ridryder911 said:
I totally agree the government should not be involved, as long as one assumes the full risk. When I worked as a Trauma System Specialist, many states wanted to enforce more regulations. My response was to those that opposed such regulations to make a contract with the state with proof to back it.
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Proof to oppse regulations? In the land of the free? I am sorry but Oppose some regualtion of philisophacal grouds. I don't need to preove that I disagree. I don't need to prove that I don't think the government should baby sit ourselves.

If one does not want to wear a seat belt, or even a helmet .. okay, put up a half million dollar bond, with a agreement that your insurance, employer, and yes the state does not have to fund your family or you while you are incapacitated or die.

It should however not be my responsibility to you for your poor and foolish actions.. remember ... it is your right to be foolish and stupid.
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Thats right. Its our freedom to be foolish. Nor do I think the taxpayer need to pay for that stupidity.

Want to know what the number one killer for those between the ages of 20 to 35 is ?.. It is trauma. Now take this in consideration the average hospital costs for traumatic patients is approximately > $100,000 and those with TBI average >$1 million. Usually, those involved have families, employed, etc.. Now, consider family income decreases by one, stressors to the family. A worker now has to be replaced and retrained.. What are the costs ?..
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Its very simple. Traffic accident are the #1 killer. Lets make it illegal outright. How much $$$ is spent on insurance fraud? Force everyone to take public tranportation. It certainly reduce deaths and injuries and fraud related to MVAs

Realize I disagree on philosphical terms. I don't need stats to disagree with you.

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I would like to add a couple of things...........

Our "system" isn't perfect by any means. But it IS the best in the world. We have to be cautious about which laws we choose to obey and those we don't.

My belief as a police officer was I wanted "voluntary compliance" with the law. In other words.... I follow the law because I want to, not because I am "afraid" of the police.

As a police officer, I never ticketed an EMS provider. I did get hacked when I would stop one at 0430 in the morning for speeding in a POV because he was late to work and then he would act like he shouldn't have been stopped because he was in EMS.

The other point is most officers (not all) work very hard at not being hipocritical. I always wear my seatbelt. I dont intentionally speed. I don't drink and drive. I lead by example.

So the thread was.......... is it OK to speed. The answer would be........ within reason. If you disbey your policy and the law....... you should be fired. End of story no dicsussion.

There have been many studies done to show speeding in the EMS setting may only save a minute or two in the urban setting. A minute or two vs. my life just isn't worth it.

Do what you wish in your POV, then argue it with the judge......... but don't pee in my pool.

You know the "jury pool". EMS is no different than law enforcement. When you do something while in the MOVING BILLBOARD people judge us all the same. SO if you pee in the pool, people don't care which service you work for, it appears like we all pees in it.

Be professional....... be kind...... but earn the respect of the public and your peers. We can all do that by respecting each others position.
 
Out system is the best in the world because it accepts different point of view.

I will tell it to the judge, the stage legislature. congress. etc etc I will write you a ticket for peeing in the pool. That will $300.
 
firecoins said:
Out system is the best in the world because it accepts different point of view.

I will tell it to the judge, the stage legislature. congress. etc etc I will write you a ticket for peeing in the pool. That will $300.
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Ha! Nobody saw me, so they can't prove a thing!! :)
 
tell it to the judge!:)
 
I don't want to be the materialistic weasel of the group, and I'm not taking sides since both fire and Rid have good points, but considering how many times a friend of mine or someone I know has been pulled over for going 5 miles an hour over the limit, honestly how can anyone justify that the speeding tickets at least are not done simply for profit?

In fact, the very first ticket I got was for not having my lights on when it was at "night". The kicker? The sun was still setting so it was actually brighter then than it was during the day since the sun creates more illumination at dawn/dusk. So yeah I could have turned my lights on but it would have provided no additional illumination and thus would not have affected anything. A lot of the laws that cops enforce /are/ there simply to make money, whether one wants to admit it or not.

And considering how many cops I see abuse their lights to get through intersections, speed, etc....maybe it's just different in NorCal because it's so rural here but they break laws all the time and give off the impression that there's no reason to follow the law since they sure as hell aren't.
 
First, lights/sirens really save time in intersections and heavy traffic. If you're running 65+ RLS and rationalize it as saving time, you're fooling yourself.

Second, having worked for a private EMS service, time is absolutely everything when it comes to contracts. Our service meets time requirements by only taking contracts that will provide enough money to justify adequate coverage. It amazes me that some cities, my own included, don't always see if the same way. They want fast response times from private EMS, but don't want to pay for a contract.

Again, I think we need to shift our focus from RLS saving time to creating a system that saves time through advances in dispatch, dynamic crew staging, and education of the general public.
 
MMiz said:
First, lights/sirens really save time in intersections and heavy traffic. If you're running 65+ RLS and rationalize it as saving time, you're fooling yourself.
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That's true. I wouldn't want to drive many of our rigs faster than 65mph anyway. Heck, around here, you're lucky if you could even get UP to 65mph on the freeway half the time. Too much traffic!

RLS really is great for getting through intersections, though. We have a decent expressway system but it can still take you 20 minutes to go 2 miles if you're plodding along in traffic. Getting through just a handful of lights will easily shave 10 minutes off your trip time. Just follow the law, and work within the guidelines.
 
Wow! You guys and gals are thinking !... Safety, plus using the noodle..

Be careful though, many still want the traditional U call .. we haul arse! ..

Funny though, no one answered my question.. "If they were to out law and remove L & S would you still be in it ?

R/r 911
 
Yes, I would still be in EMS. Lights and SIrens are not the draw for me.
 
Ridryder911 said:
Wow! You guys and gals are thinking !... Safety, plus using the noodle..

Be careful though, many still want the traditional U call .. we haul arse! ..

Funny though, no one answered my question.. "If they were to out law and remove L & S would you still be in it ?

R/r 911
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I'd still be in :)
 
It may seem strange that cops actually do pull over ambulances while they are going non-emergency status but in some towns it does happen,and they dont care that you are driving an emergency vehicle,they will ticket you.
 
akflightmedic said:
Ok, here is a little spinoff from other threads.

Some feel it is ok to violate traffic laws since they are responding to a call and some people feel they are always on call due to their volunteer status.

If you think it is ok to have these mindsets, is it ok to force your family to go along with your views??

Should you subject them to you always runnung calls?

Should you violate traffic laws while doing this, in effect forcing them to go along with your judgement? What about the kids who can not voice protest?
Is it ok to put them at risk as well, for someone else's emergency?


Here is a nice article (The capital letters were done by me for emphasis)......


Firefighter hit by state trooper en route to emergency call
January 19, 2007

By MELISSA DiPANE
6 News Anchor/Reporter

SEVIER COUNTY (WATE) -- The Tennessee Highway Patrol is investigating whether a trooper went too far in forcing a firefighter answering a call to stop.

Michael Huskey was in the family minivan WITH HIS WIFE AND KIDS when he heard a call from dispatch needing an emergency driver to help a nearby ambulance.

Huskey turned on his flashers and drove 85 in a 55 mile per hour zone when a state trooper tried to pull him over.

Huskey radioed dispatch to call off the trooper but he says the trooper swooped in front of him, causing an accident.

"Once he stopped my client, he found that out and yet he still handcuffed and arrested and investigated it further and took him to jail." says Jim Gass, Huskey's attorney.

Huskey got a speeding ticket and was charged with failure to yield to lights and sirens.

According to the report, the officer did not intend to crash into the minivan.

Huskey will go before a Sevier County judge in a few weeks.
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Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing. I would NEVER go lights and siren with my famliy in the car!! That right there is putting his family at risk for an accident,we all know as soon as those items are put in motion the risk of injury and death goes up tenfold, not to mention the stress put on that man's family. Don't get me wrong here, If this man came first on scene to an accident and started care, told his wife to call dispatch to get the ball moving, that is on thing. But to respond like that with his family, I would say he needs to get his priorities straighten out and needs to THINK before he REACTS!!
 
First. Rid. I don't use L&S very much. So yes I would still be in it, and maybe run more calls. I hate the way the younger folks "Flip, Push, and Mash" Flip the Lights on, Push the siren button, and mash the fuel pedal. Fly down the road, then have to slam on the brakes and throw me and my pt. around the back of a truck. Just S*cks.

Now for the time factor. 60 mph means in one hour you will go 60 miles. 75 mph means in one hour you will go 75 miles. saves about 15 min in that hour. now in my area we are 10 to 15 miles from the closest ED. the diffrence is not worth the risk. I will save maybe 3 or 4 min. Max. I spend more time than that at the nuses station trying to get a room for my pt. and on top of that there is nothing that they will do in the ED that I can't do in the truck. If you give a good report on the radio they will know what is comming. And will be ready.

As for my personal vehicle I do not even own a red light. If I fly down the road not that I will or do (:rolleyes: ) and pass someone say in a no passing zone then all they say is "Look at that Fool". Now same person if I have that little light flashing " Look at that d@mn fireman/emt I'm going to call the Chief." On top of that when my tones go off I get up and go pee first and foremost. So I waste about 2 to 3 min. there. So no I am not going to fly up and down the road just because someone has been sick for 2 weeks and decides that they can get a room in the ED faster by going at 2 AM via the big Red and White Taxi.
 
Ridryder911 said:
Wow! You guys and gals are thinking !... Safety, plus using the noodle..

Be careful though, many still want the traditional U call .. we haul arse! ..

Funny though, no one answered my question.. "If they were to out law and remove L & S would you still be in it ?

R/r 911
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I would not be in EMS without the lights. I think they're essential to crew safety in many situations. The siren I could do without.
 
Given the percentage of the time that we actually use L&S, that is not the draw for me. Heck, back when I worked private service, I would go weeks without using them. Anyone saying that is the biggest reason they are in this business will eventually get someone hurt or worse, and shouldn't be in EMS to begin with, IMO.
 
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