Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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Fixed for ya.
Socialism
- Thread starter 46Young
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Fixed for ya.
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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I am for universal health care and education for prisoners. I believe there is enough produced by the working people of the world to provide jointly for our needs, and I think a failure to offer positive rehabilitation to prisoners is a very grave mistake.
This conversation makes me want to start a general poll of the EMS community. My impression is that conservatives would be a very high percentage of the profession.
This conversation makes me want to start a general poll of the EMS community. My impression is that conservatives would be a very high percentage of the profession.
Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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It's actually been done before(nationally), and in the military, police, fire and EMS, conservatives are the vast majority.
SeeNoMore
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"It's actually been done before(nationally), and in the military, police, fire and EMS, conservatives are the vast majority.'
Yeah that was my impression, but I had no data to back it up. Thanks
Yeah that was my impression, but I had no data to back it up. Thanks
Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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Well, neither do I but I did see it in several places within the past year. ^_^
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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To be fair, I am of the belief that most people have more in common than not, despite being conservative or left leaning. I would supsect that firefighers for example might have some more liberal leanings in regard to labor and union politics.
I have conservative friends of the sort that value independence and hard work along with upstanding moral values. I have a great deal of resepect for this and think along the same lines. I am often critical of liberal ideololgy that erodes personal responcibility or denies personal freedom.
In this sense, I can see how a tradesperson or farmer would see socialism as a threat to their way of life. By the same token, a worker in a large factory or say a Mcdonalds might feel very hopeful about the possibility of basing workplace practices on cooperation with his or her fellow employee.
My major disagreement with conservative thinking is the idea that it is desireable to have a society where one individual can get far ahead of any other. I respect the need for citizens to be productive, but think one would be hard pressed to find an area of society where one or two people truly were responcible for the maintenacnce and advancement of our way of life. I would like to see much more community democracy and options to share resources, like a type of socialized healthcare program. VT has a pretty neat history of robust town meetings, which is a practice that is less and less common in the US.
I have conservative friends of the sort that value independence and hard work along with upstanding moral values. I have a great deal of resepect for this and think along the same lines. I am often critical of liberal ideololgy that erodes personal responcibility or denies personal freedom.
In this sense, I can see how a tradesperson or farmer would see socialism as a threat to their way of life. By the same token, a worker in a large factory or say a Mcdonalds might feel very hopeful about the possibility of basing workplace practices on cooperation with his or her fellow employee.
My major disagreement with conservative thinking is the idea that it is desireable to have a society where one individual can get far ahead of any other. I respect the need for citizens to be productive, but think one would be hard pressed to find an area of society where one or two people truly were responcible for the maintenacnce and advancement of our way of life. I would like to see much more community democracy and options to share resources, like a type of socialized healthcare program. VT has a pretty neat history of robust town meetings, which is a practice that is less and less common in the US.
firecoins
IFT Puppet
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Basically resources are limited. Socialism won't work because it will be run by a slow moving and self serving beurocracy who will decide how use those limitied resources based on perceived needs.
Of course unseating such a beuracracy from power will be near impossible, they control the resources.
Of course unseating such a beuracracy from power will be near impossible, they control the resources.
Sasha
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No, but there are foodstamps, soup kitchens, and foodbanks to help meet your nutritional needs if you have no food. However what is there for people who have no health care? Medicaid? A very broken system.
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Shishkabob
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No. Foodstamps are for those who can't afford to eat, not for everyone who wants to eat.
THAT is where the difference is. People are saying free healthcare should be for EVERYONE.
Either everyone gets the necessities for free, or they don't.
Sasha
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So because someone is not fortunate enough they should suffer?
Sorry, no thank you. I'd rather pay higher taxes so those that need it get the health care they need.
Sorry, no thank you. I'd rather pay higher taxes so those that need it get the health care they need.
Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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Where did I ever say that? Where did I ever say people who need it shouldn't have it?
But if (generic)you're going to use the same old tired excuse that free healthcare is a right, then you need to explain why food, water and shelter are not given to every single person for free, no matter how much they make, whenever they demand it.
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Good for you...make sure that when you file your tax returns next year, you don't get a refund but instead give it back to the government. Otherwise, stop trying to raise my taxes to pay for your beliefs.
Government run health care is NOT the end all, be all that people think it is. Take a look at ANY, and I mean ANY, government program that took tax money in an effort to "help those that need it." Name one program that has worked, without turning into a black hole of spending.
I don't have the answers to this problem, but I do know the answer doesn't lie with the government. To quote President Reagan, "The scariest words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
minneola24
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You may not want to pay higher taxes but I don't know (or want to know for that matter) what your salary is.
But if someone is making 400,000 + a year they should be paying higher taxes than someone who makes 12k and can barely get by.
3 kids are playing with toys,
First kid has 5 new toys
Second kid has 1 old toy
Third kid has 0 toys
I think the first kid should share toys with the second and third kid, but the second kid should keep his toys.
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So how much more should the person in your example pay? This is why I support a flat tax, something that would take our existing tax code and reduce to a one page document. No deductions, no exemptions.
10 percent of $400,000 is $40,000...which is still more than what a person making $12,000 per year would pay.
As to your example about the kids with toys, do you make your kids give their toys to people who make less than you? It's easy to say that people who have more than you should give more, but I'm willing to bet that when it comes down to you giving up your property/belongings in this scenario you take on a different viewpoint.
But let's continue down the road of your example for a moment...so that we can expose one of the biggest fallacies of socialism. Socialism takes away any motivation for an individual to better themselves and become a more productive member of society. After all, why should you work hard all of your life if the government is only going to come and take all of that away in order to give it to those who don't have as much as you?
10 percent of $400,000 is $40,000...which is still more than what a person making $12,000 per year would pay.
As to your example about the kids with toys, do you make your kids give their toys to people who make less than you? It's easy to say that people who have more than you should give more, but I'm willing to bet that when it comes down to you giving up your property/belongings in this scenario you take on a different viewpoint.
But let's continue down the road of your example for a moment...so that we can expose one of the biggest fallacies of socialism. Socialism takes away any motivation for an individual to better themselves and become a more productive member of society. After all, why should you work hard all of your life if the government is only going to come and take all of that away in order to give it to those who don't have as much as you?
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Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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Depends. Do you mean by percentage, or by pure quantity?
If they should pay a different percentage, then HELL no. Why punish someone for doing well?
If it's the SAME percentage as everyone else, but just a higher amount becuase of such, I don't think anyone is against that.
Also depends. Does Kid #3 not have toys because he blew them all on cocaine and other illicit items? Then he has to deal with the consequences. Is he a lazy kid who takes naps all day instead of fingerpaint like the others? Then again, he should deal with the consequences.
Did he fall on rough times, get sick and laid off? Then yes, give the kid a slinky.
Hockey
Quackers
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Well said.
For those that actually understand socialized medicine, and the way people are in this country vs other countries such as Canada and a few others, they know it would not work here.
We're being taxed enough already. The Government needs to get their priorities straight
Something I know the educated people here will enjoy
[youtube]fRdLpem-AAs[/youtube]
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Yeah.......not fortunate enough.
Ever been to the projects it looks like a LEXUS dealership.Keep thinking you tax money is going to the less fortunate, I'm sure our elected officials are thrilled that your buying that load of crap.
How about kid number three has no toys because his dope head mom put it up her nose, or his absentee father thought it was more important to by some bang'n rims, pair of the new Jordan's or is down the block soaking his liver with the money he should be using to provide for his children
I am all for helping the less fortunate when their parents are on the same page. If you cant get your priorities in order it isn't my fault nor is it my responsibility to help.
Hockey
Quackers
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yeah.......not fortunate enough.
Keep thinking you tax money is going to the less fortunate, i'm sure our elected officials are thrilled that your buying that load of crap.
+10000000000
minneola24
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Yeah many poor people go the drug route, however there ARE hard working Americans that are still living in poverty. Especially Immigrants.