Sasha
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Sleeping on the job:how do you do it?
- Thread starter EMTMichael
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Once, while hiding in the playground, we had a guy high as $%^&* banging on the side of our bus with a sword. We couldn't tell if it was plastic or bendable metal. "Y'all (we were in Queens, I don't get where y'all comes from) been out here for five m!@#$%^&*!@n hours (I wish)! Y'all don't do %$#@!
My partner was working on that bus, on the day shift on another day, and he ran into the guy. He was real chill, remembered the incident, and said that he was high when it happened.
Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
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Police officer...and they get fired for sleeping on duty
NomadicMedic
I know a guy who knows a guy.
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We work 2 12 hour days followed by 2 12 hour nights. Our stations all have bunks. We are allowed to sleep after 2200 and have to be up by 0630. Most nights I get decent sleep, but on those nights when I don't, I certainly don't complain. After all, I'm being paid to run calls, not snooze.
Our bunks are a benefit, not a right and if our "out the chute" time ever suffered, it's a guarantee that the bunks would disappear. We're always enroute 90 seconds after dispatch.
Our bunks are a benefit, not a right and if our "out the chute" time ever suffered, it's a guarantee that the bunks would disappear. We're always enroute 90 seconds after dispatch.
Sasha
Forum Chief
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Pseudonymous
Forum Crew Member
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It is our responsibility to be well rested, before we even start a shift? That's not always an option. In fact, for most people I know, it's damn near impossible. I guess you don't, but some people have other things to do when they aren't at work. It can't always be: Sleep all day, then stay awake for a 12 hour shift, rinse, repeat. Something I hear an awful lot from my coworkers after a 12 hour shift goes something like: "After this I go home and sleep for an hour, and then back to work another 12 at another EMS job"
We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out.
Instead of talking down to others who are just trying to find ways to get a bit of sleep on the job, you should thank your respective god that you actually have the blessing of being able to be well rested before a shift.
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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absolutely!!!! it's called being a professional, and coming to work in the proper condition to work. when you are at work (any job), you are expected be awake and making money for the company for the duration of your shift (expect if you employer allows otherwise.
Don't care, not my problem. As an employer, I don't care what you do when you aren't at work, but you should be ready to work for your entire shift.
if you are going job to job, than that's your fault, not mine. And if you come to my job from your other job, and end up sleeping and missing a call, or being in a condition that you are unable to function, than you can bet your job that I will discipline you and possibly fire you for reporting to work in a condition where you are unable to perform your job adequately.
Agreed, 100%. however, you should be sleeping at home, in your bed, not while you are on the clock at your job (again, unless your employer permits it).
No. you should report to work well rested ready to work. that's your responsibility as an employee.
Being able to sleep at work is NOT a right. it's a privilege if it's permitted at all. An employer doesn't (and shouldn't) care what you do in your off time, family, other jobs, child care, 10 hour star trek marathon, etc, but you are expected to be awake and ready to work for the entire duration of your shift.
I work nights, 12 hours at a clip. I know I need at least 6 hours of sleep between shifts, otherwise my productivity dips. on 4 hours, my brain doesn't function properly. on less than 2, my body chemistry goes straight to hell. 18 hrs shifts get long (esp when you have 6 hours off and are back for another 18), doubles suck, triples (36 hours on the clock, done 3 in my career) suck when I don't have a slow job where I can nap in the middle). But the bottom line is, I am expected to be awake and ready to wok for 12 hours straight. that's what my employer pays me hourly for.
Do I sleep at work? absolutely not. have I fallen asleep at work? rarely. have I napped? sure. but unless my agency provided sleeping quarters, I don't go into work expecting to sleep during my shift. And if I am napping and I end up on jobs during my "planned" nap time, oh well, I have no right to complain or say anything about it.
Pseudonymous
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Those are some nice thoughts, Dr.Parasite. But here in reality, we can't devote 100% of our time to work. And people don't always just choose to have other things just as important as work in their life. We can't just go to work, then just sleep until our next work day. We have things like family, upkeep of our homes, etc.
Your ideas are solely based on having loads of time between shifts to sleep and relax. Life is more complicated than that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're probably new to EMS, or demanding careers in general, but you need to understand, in the working world, things are more complicated than just getting enough sleep and work. You say people should be home sleeping in their beds, not work? That doesn't really work for people that only spend around 24 hours a week at their home.
A good thing for OP to do, is bring a car blanket and car pillow. There is nothing wrong with resting while you would otherwise be doing absolutely nothing, in order to keep efficiency and functionality as close to ideal levels as possible.
Your ideas are solely based on having loads of time between shifts to sleep and relax. Life is more complicated than that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're probably new to EMS, or demanding careers in general, but you need to understand, in the working world, things are more complicated than just getting enough sleep and work. You say people should be home sleeping in their beds, not work? That doesn't really work for people that only spend around 24 hours a week at their home.
A good thing for OP to do, is bring a car blanket and car pillow. There is nothing wrong with resting while you would otherwise be doing absolutely nothing, in order to keep efficiency and functionality as close to ideal levels as possible.
abckidsmom
Dances with Patients
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I literally laughed out loud when I read this. You think that because he commits to sleeping at least 3 full REM cycles between shifts, and eliminates distractions and overcommitments that he is new to demanding careers?
In every instance where I have known a partner to work, then go home and be responsible for child care, or family needs, or whatever - without even considering a second job or school, their performance has suffered. They were always looking to grab a nap, and grouched about if they didn't get this right post to be able to, or whatever.
Standard workplace behavior means that you arrive to work FIT FOR DUTY. Not according to your own, "oh I'm fine" but actually game-day physically fit for duty. Awake, showered, focused on the tasks at hand, having eaten before the start of shift or packing food for on the go. Really, anything less is giving your patients and partners a second rate medic.
You can certainly go for months, years even, taking care of yourself last after doing and going constantly, but its no life.
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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I was working "12's" and sleeping about 4.5 hrs a night.
If I hadn't finally gotten my cardiac diagnosis (i.e., wakeup call) and then retired I'd be dead now. And that was WITH a labor union and civil service commission protection.
It can become a macho/adrenaline/ "I can't do anything else" thing, and your employer will come to rely on that sort of misguided heroic effort. Bugger that, it is bad for you, your family, and your patients.
If I hadn't finally gotten my cardiac diagnosis (i.e., wakeup call) and then retired I'd be dead now. And that was WITH a labor union and civil service commission protection.
It can become a macho/adrenaline/ "I can't do anything else" thing, and your employer will come to rely on that sort of misguided heroic effort. Bugger that, it is bad for you, your family, and your patients.
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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huh? I never said you need to devote 100% of your time to work. what I said was you need to devote 100% of your time you are scheduled to be at work and be at work, ready to work. everything else you need to do in your life (sleep, eat, housework, etc) should be done during your off hours. how you manage your time is your responsibility, but when you are at work, you should be there to work.
No, its not. If you work 12 hour shifts, you have 10-12 hours off from work, depending on commute and the occasional late job. also if you work 12 hour shifts, you only work 3-4 days a week. That means you have 3-4 days off a week. You need to manage your time and juggle all your other stuff to do, within all those times you are not at work. And before you ask, yes, you might need to schedule your sleep time.
I have only been doing this for the 13 years, with the last 6 years in urban EMS systems. Your right, I'm just a newbie. Before doing EMS, I worked in the corporate world, and I'm pretty sure my supervisor would have let me go (no wait, not let me go, he would throw me out on my ***) if he ever walked up to my desk and saw me taking a nap, esp if I had a pillow and blanket.
than you are too busy lol. if you are only spending 24 hours a week at home, than you are setting yourself up for major health problems and an early grave. As you said, "We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out." and you are right. sleep, deep sleep, uninterrupted, not 20 min to an hour here another 30 min there in the back of an ambulance.
I know this might shock you, but everyone has stuff they do outside of work. the 19 year old who lives at home with parents does family stuff, friend stuff, girlfriend stuff, college/school stuff, going out stuff, drinking time, and needs to balance in sleep and other stuff to maintain his or her health. oh yeah, and sleep
As the 19 year old gets older and turn 36, he or she will have bills to pay, family stuff, friend stuff, girlfriend/wife/ex-wife stuff, college/school stuff, going out stuff, drinking time, and needs to balance in sleep and other stuff to maintain his or her health. oh yeah, and sleep
If you want to insist you have the right to sleep on company time, don't need to come to work fit to work for 12 straight hours, or make excuses (I don't have time to sleep, I have too much stuff going on) to justify your behavior, well, I guess there is nothing more for me to say. you have made your decision how you want to act, and despite me trying to convince you act like a professional, you insist on not doing so.
To each his or her own, I guess.
DV_EMT
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Im married and both my wife and I work 12's and we're happy as pie. gives us long days off together when we're scheduled properly ^_^
Sasha
Forum Chief
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Really? You shouldn't eat at work? Lol.
At the corporate world were you routinely held over a few hours when you only had 12 hours between shifts? Did you have long stretches where you didn't do anything? Then got busy slammed the last two hours of your shift?
If you want to sleep, sleep if you have the time. Nothing wrong with that.
Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk
Aidey
Community Leader Emeritus
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Newsflash, the majority of the rest of the world works days. I've worked nights for the last 2 1/2 years. The effort involved in keeping people from calling me*, knocking on my door etc is insane. I sleep during the day. My neighbors do not. The garbage truck does not. UPS does not.
I take my sleep seriously. I've threatened my apartment manager with police action, because they did not seem to understand that when I put on maintenance requests not to knock, call or enter my apartment before 3pm that I was dead serious. After a maintenance worker entered my apartment at 0900 with zero warning I told them that if it happened again I would consider it an illegal entry and call the police and report an intruder.
You might want to tone down the condescension a bit, night shift workers are at the mercy of the people around them who operate on a normal schedule. No matter what you do, shiat happens. I can not fathom how hard it would be to maintain such a strict schedule with a spouse and kids. If being a "professional" is worth telling your family to eff off 1/2 of the time, than I suppose it is possible.
*My phone is set to vibrate, I can't turn it off completely. If my employer calls to mandatory me and I don't respond I get one freebie, after that if I don't call in within 2 hours I get written up. There is zero room to negotiate with them on this.
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akflightmedic
Forum Deputy Chief
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All about choices, you choose nights and you choose your employer. Obviously there is some personal benefit for your choices or you would not stay with this employer or this schedule.
Here is some advice regarding your phone: Purchase a very cheap, inexpensive pre paid phone. That phone number is used for your employer, that is the only number they get.
Shut off your regular social phone which everyone else has access to. Now when that cheapo phone rings or vibrates...you know it is your employer. You now have no excuse to have to monitor every chirp, vibration or ring from the non work phone....just a little food for thought from one who has been there done that.
Here is some advice regarding your phone: Purchase a very cheap, inexpensive pre paid phone. That phone number is used for your employer, that is the only number they get.
Shut off your regular social phone which everyone else has access to. Now when that cheapo phone rings or vibrates...you know it is your employer. You now have no excuse to have to monitor every chirp, vibration or ring from the non work phone....just a little food for thought from one who has been there done that.
akflightmedic
Forum Deputy Chief
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Regardless of all the difficulties for the night shift worker, the employer is paying you to show up and to be your best for them for the shift assigned. It is up to you to make that happen. You should never show up expecting to sleep or nap...period. It is not a right.
You should never base an off duty choice on the assumption of "well I slept the past three shifts I will do so again".
You should never base an off duty choice on the assumption of "well I slept the past three shifts I will do so again".
Aidey
Community Leader Emeritus
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I did not chose nights, my spot on the seniority list did. Sure, you could say I always have the option to work somewhere else but how many EMS employers don't assign shifts based on seniority? I actually kind of did the phone thing back when I had a land line. The issue being that I was constantly forgetting to set and unset the call forwarding for when I left the house but was not at work.
I don't disagree that you should never expect to do anything at work but work. I just take exception to the attitude that if you work nights (or another odd shift) that you need to STFU because it is your fault and your fault alone if you don't get enough sleep.
I don't disagree that you should never expect to do anything at work but work. I just take exception to the attitude that if you work nights (or another odd shift) that you need to STFU because it is your fault and your fault alone if you don't get enough sleep.
AlphaButch
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If you're working, you shouldn't expect to be able to sleep at all. That being said, the majority of employers I've worked with or have knowledge of, are very leniant of napping on the job as long as the job gets done and performance is up to par.
Employers are normally required to make reasonable adjustments for downtime or sleep if a shift is 24 hrs or longer. This doesn't mean that they are required to give you sleep, they're just required to make reasonable provisions for it. Such as quiet time for a few hours, darkened room with bunks, etc. If you've volunteered to pick up an extra shift - this is waived.
Even though we're leniant on napping when there isn't work to be done, bringing a pillow and blanket onto the truck has a very negative perception. It's telling supervision that your shift is so slow that you expect to sleep the shifts or that you weren't able to get enough sleep before work for some reason; Both of these are causes of alarm on a managerial level.
Employers are normally required to make reasonable adjustments for downtime or sleep if a shift is 24 hrs or longer. This doesn't mean that they are required to give you sleep, they're just required to make reasonable provisions for it. Such as quiet time for a few hours, darkened room with bunks, etc. If you've volunteered to pick up an extra shift - this is waived.
Even though we're leniant on napping when there isn't work to be done, bringing a pillow and blanket onto the truck has a very negative perception. It's telling supervision that your shift is so slow that you expect to sleep the shifts or that you weren't able to get enough sleep before work for some reason; Both of these are causes of alarm on a managerial level.
I think everybody is arguing for no reason. We all seem to be in agreement on the fact that you should go to work expecting to work the entire time and not sleep. However, if all of your station/rig duties are done AND you're not breaking a company policy AND you can wake up and be ready to go when the radio calls you, who cares if you sleep? If the company doesn't dictate what I do on my downtime then I'll do what I feel is best for me at that time. I'm sure my patients would like me a lot more at 34 of my 36 hours if I've had the opportunity to nap than they would if I hadn't whether I am capable of working the whole 36 with no rest period or not.
RuralMedik
Forum Ride Along
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Downtime
I can't find fault in that if the truck is checked off, any applicable chores are comleted, any in-service(s) are finished, then why not? When I work a 24 hr shift, if it's after 6pm I'll take a nap if tired, and if it's after 11pm, I may be asleep, unless on a call, be it a 911 response or an IFT.
There ARE times when a crew takes an IFT to a facility that involves an 11 hour round trip. Staring at the road for hours on end can make anyone tired, so I've always advocated a 24 hr crew to rest when they can. Sometimes, though, the call volume just will not allow it.
I can't find fault in that if the truck is checked off, any applicable chores are comleted, any in-service(s) are finished, then why not? When I work a 24 hr shift, if it's after 6pm I'll take a nap if tired, and if it's after 11pm, I may be asleep, unless on a call, be it a 911 response or an IFT.
There ARE times when a crew takes an IFT to a facility that involves an 11 hour round trip. Staring at the road for hours on end can make anyone tired, so I've always advocated a 24 hr crew to rest when they can. Sometimes, though, the call volume just will not allow it.
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