Should EMS/Fire be armed?

[CCCSD]

please cite the court case that said that you don't need to verbally ask someone to leave before they can be charged with trespassing, from a public business that is open to the public.

Not saying you're wrong, but if the court did uphold that, I'd be interested in reading the decision.

What part of my post said anything about verbal warnings.
Why do you always manipulate discussion to try to prove you are all knowing…

 

[Akulahawk]

A business with a posted sign has ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying. If you are just going to ignore that, it is tantamount to trespass. I'm pro 2A, but I'm also pro private property rights. Don't minimize the rights of the property holder. 2A protects your from government rules, but your individual rights end where they violate another's individual rights. Willfully violating their property rights because they might not notice is no different than trespassing across someone's pasture under the idea that you aren't hurtin nothin if nobody sees you.

Businesses that are open to the public have restrictions upon their property rights as it pertains to trespass and signage. They often may not be allowed to restrict just anyone they wish. A private residence is a different matter as it's not open to the public. A no weapons sign often carries no force of law with it as it often conveys a policy of the property owner. My hospital has signs like that all over the place. That's great. There aren't any means to detect weapons at any of the entrances and therefore security can't ask the person to leave to secure it somewhere as the person enters the facility.

When I do carry, I usually ignore such signs on buildings that are open to the public because policy doesn't have force of law. There are certain buildings and places that are off limits (example PC 171b and 171c and 629.9) but those areas often contain exemptions for licensed individuals. As I am licensed, I may ignore 171b as I'm exempt. 171c and 626.9 are very specific as to where I may not carry. Public hospitals fall under 171b, private hospitals only have policy "protecting" them.

 

[Summit]

Sounds like some state-specific stuff. My statement is generally true in an ethical sense even if some states have legal loopholes

 

[mgr22]

Sounds like some state-specific stuff. My statement is generally true in an ethical sense even if some states have legal loopholes

This could involve a decision not to exercise rights -- an underrated way of getting along with each other. For example, I can't imagine arguing the fine points of the Second Amendment with a business owner who asks customers not to carry. Even if it's my right, it's their store. I can leave the gun in the car or shop somewhere else.

 

[DrParasite]

The original statement was as follows

A business with a posted sign has ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying.

To which I asked "Is that really how the law works?"
Then you said:

Yep. No guns means no guns. Enforceable by Law.
The courts have upheld that.

So when I asked for the case law that you stated was upheld by the courts (which is exactly what was stated previously, that the sign implies that you were "ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying"

What part of my post said anything about verbal warnings.

it seems that you either provided incorrect information, neglected to read the statement, or tried to make a statement that had no factual basis. And when you were called out on it, you got defensive and tried to deflect, instead of admitting that your statement was wrong

Why do you always manipulate discussion to try to prove you are all knowing…

I'm not all knowing, I just asked a simple question... Sadly, I do seem to know more than you. which is embarrassing, because you claim to have law enforcement background.

 

[DrParasite]

This could involve a decision not to exercise rights -- an underrated way of getting along with each other. For example, I can't imagine arguing the fine points of the Second Amendment with a business owner who asks customers not to carry.

That's true. However, if your firearm is concealed, and they shouldn't even know you are carrying. And since your not violating the law, why bother having the conversation in the first place?

Even if it's my right, it's their store. I can leave the gun in the car or shop somewhere else.

You absolutely can. But why should you?

We are getting off on a bigger tangent here, but let me ask this: if a gunman enters the store, armed with a firearm, and points it at the owner, demanding that he empty the register... and you draw your firearm and neutralize the threat... do you think the owner will demand that you leave the store? or thank you? and if they don't know, is there really that big of an issue?

 

[mgr22]

You absolutely can. But why should you?

We are getting off on a bigger tangent here, but let me ask this: if a gunman enters the store, armed with a firearm, and points it at the owner, demanding that he empty the register... and you draw your firearm and neutralize the threat... do you think the owner will demand that you leave the store? or thank you? and if they don't know, is there really that big of an issue?

Would you be okay with someone ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?

 

[Summit]

My momma always told me, "just cuz you have the right to do something doesn't always make it right thing to do." So that applies to legal loopholes in this discussion.

 

[DrParasite]

Would you be okay with someone ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?

to be perfectly honest? Yes. Absolutely.

If I don't know about it, and it doesn't affect me, than I really won't care about it. It's not something I would lose sleep over.

There is so much concern over "omg, what would people think" and "you're breaking the rules" and "would someone please think of the children" but I'm of the belief that if it doesn't affect me, than I don't care.

I can say I am 100% against illegal drugs, but if my worker shows up with drugs in his or her system, as long as his/her performance isn't effected, and he or she is doing his job, I really don't care. Now, if something happens that does affect me, that's a different story.

So yeah, if you are carrying concealed in a court house, on an airplane, at a school, on the ambulance or <insert your gun free zone here>, I really don't care. Now, if that weapon come out, and I become aware of it... then my opinion changes drastically.

 

[Summit]

to be perfectly honest? Yes. Absolutely.

There is so much concern over "omg, what would people think" and "you're breaking the rules"

Moral character is best demonstrated by what you do when nobody is looking. I always appreciate when people advertise openly.

 

[DrParasite]

Moral character is best demonstrated by what you do when nobody is looking. I always appreciate when people advertise openly.

the phrase is "Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking."

In this case, just because someone disagrees with what I'm doing, doesn't make it morally wrong, esp if their belief conflicts with an explicitly granted right in this country. Sorry your feeling are hurt, but they don't trump mine.

 

[Summit]

You are explicitly saying you are OK to violate the rights and wishes of others so long as you don't think they will find out, and so long as it doesn't, in your opinion, cause harm. Not hurting my feelings. I appreciate your candor.

 

[DrParasite]

You are explicitly saying you are OK to violate the rights and wishes of others so long as you don't think they will find out, and so long as it doesn't, in your opinion, cause harm. Not hurting my feelings. I appreciate your candor.

No.... The question I was asked was "Would you be okay with someone [else] ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?" and I said I would be ok with that.

I'm not violating anyone's rights (see @Akulahawk's post above). And the wishes and desires of others don't override my wishes and desires. And if you don't like that, well, sorry you feel that way, but it has nothing to do with my moral character, despite your erroneous claims.

Please stop claiming I explicitly said something that I never said. You should work on actually reading what was said,

 

[CCCSD]

No.... The question I was asked was "Would you be okay with someone [else] ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?" and I said I would be ok with that.

I'm not violating anyone's rights (see @Akulahawk's post above). And the wishes and desires of others don't override my wishes and desires. And if you don't like that, well, sorry you feel that way, but it has nothing to do with my moral character, despite your erroneous claims.

Please stop claiming I explicitly said something that I never said. You should work on actually reading what was said,

Sort of what you do with other’s posts..?

 

[ffemt8978]

This thread has been doing really well so far, so please keep it that way and lay off the sniping at each other.

 

[johnrsemt]

Dr. Parasite: depends on how the state law is written: in Indiana for example it is NOT breaking the law if a business has a sign that says no guns. It is a request, and they can ask for you to leave, and if you don't they can call the police and ask for you to be trespassed off premises; but nothing to do with the firearm. Which protected the gentleman that stopped the mass shooter in the Mall.
In other states it is written that it is a law. Because Gun Free Zones stop gun crimes, because criminals see the signs and don't go into stores with those signs because it is illegal for them.

 

[DrParasite]

Dr. Parasite: depends on how the state law is written: in Indiana for example it is NOT breaking the law if a business has a sign that says no guns. It is a request, and they can ask for you to leave, and if you don't they can call the police and ask for you to be trespassed off premises; but nothing to do with the firearm. Which protected the gentleman that stopped the mass shooter in the Mall.

That's exactly my point.

In other states it is written that it is a law. Because Gun Free Zones stop gun crimes, because criminals see the signs and don't go into stores with those signs because it is illegal for them.

and that is why there are never gun crimes committed in any of these gun free zones, like in schools, places of worship, and large public gatherings.